The Dark Side of Fandom: Mark Twitchell's Deadly Obsession with Dexter

Who could imagine that a love for a TV show could inspire a real-life killer? Hold onto your seats as we, your hosts Wendy and Tiffany, dissect the unnerving tale of the Dexter Killer. With our week's triumphs and trails as backdrop, we dissect the Showtime favorite and the unnerving parallels between its protagonist, and a man who justified killing in the name of fiction.

Our journey doesn't end there. Unveiling layers of a chilling story, we recount the twisted fantasies of Mark Twitchell, as he masterminded his own murder scene for his film, House of Cards. From his admiration of Stephen King to his unsettling manifesto, The SK Confessions, we traverse through the labyrinth of a mind that scared us with its unnerving nerdiness. This episode isn't for the soft-hearted, as we reveal the shocking details of Mark's transformation into a killer.

Buckle up, as we delve deeper into the unnerving past of Mark Twitchell, Canada's infamous murderer. Discover the oddities of his childhood, his obsession with Anakin Skywalker, and the terror he brought to unsuspecting victims. We wrap up with the horrifying cover-up of his crimes, the relentless police investigation, and the courtroom drama that ended in justice. Join us, as we explore the depths of humanity and the disturbing reality of a seemingly ordinary man turned ruthless killer.

References:
S1 e9 copy cat killer / Mark Twitchell

 Manuscript from Mark Twitchell's laptop - [PDF Document] (vdocuments.mx)

Last podcast on the Left Mark Twitchell

Accused killer pulled over days after man's murder | CTV News

12 Horror Movies That Got People Jailed, Punished, or Investigated (ranker.com)

Transcript

Tiffany: 0:13

Welcome to Rogue and Wicked. So we just finished recording with a friend of Wendy's named Chewy and he's a comedian podcaster an amazing good time and he is over in the beautiful sunny state of California.

Wendy: 0:30

Yeah, it was good to mix, tiffany, your personality with his, because I'm always up in y'all's business and he does a good friend of mine and you both have, like, similar sense of humor. And yeah, there's a lot of similarities and we were discussing this during the podcast that our group of mismatched stocks of friends have in common with each other.

Tiffany: 0:54

Yeah yeah, we're all dark humor, crazy people.

Wendy: 1:00

Oh yeah, that's a just of it, but it was a good time, and I know that you've been. You've had a busy week too, haven't you?

Tiffany: 1:07

Yeah, it's been a crazy week. I have a lot of personal stuff going on that's been causing a lot of stress and trying to get all these episodes written and done in a timely manner and you know work and all this other stuff. So, yeah, it's been a crazy, crazy couple of weeks. But I did get to go in the pool today for a little bit and chill out, which was nice, and had like a little barbecue, and last weekend we went kayaking, which was fun.

Wendy: 1:32

Yeah the pictures were adorable. It's nice to see each other outside of the house because it just feels like it's been a very confining type of year and a lot of ways. My niece got married yesterday and it was a beautiful outdoor wedding with some of the greatest people I know. That was amazing, and my man is producing or releasing some of his music, but it's so good, his music is so, so good and I'm really proud of him. He's got so many gifts in that way.

Tiffany: 2:06

Yeah, Marshall's good. He's a good guitarist, singer.

Wendy: 2:09

Drama lyricist. He's a fucking Renaissance musician. So what are we doing today? What's our case today?

Tiffany: 2:16

Well, this case is pretty comical, not for the victim, obviously, but mainly for the way the killer is and the way he grew up. This one is a I wouldn't say I guess it's kind of a famous case. It's a newer case. It was happened in the 2000s. It's a case of this guy who they called the Dexter Killer and it was a guy who lived in Canada. His name was Mark Twitchell.

Tiffany: 2:42

The last podcast on the left did like a two-part episode about this dude, which was hilarious, and I don't usually listen to other podcasts versions of a murder case that we do, or a true crime story, just because I don't like to get any influence from other people as far as banter goes or copying anything. But they usually do really thorough research and I had a lot of good sources to pull from. Once I listened and I pulled from a lot of the same sources and from a couple other sources that I was able to gather and this guy was a total freaking nerd and I love nerds and I know you love nerds, I absolutely do but this particular dude was like the type of the type of nerd that you have to make fun of. I mean, he's nerdier than me and I think I'm pretty damn nerdy. So he was obsessed with the show Dexter and I'm going to start it off with a little description about Dexter for our listeners who don't know what Dexter is, please do. I'm one of those listeners. Yeah, I can't believe you've never watched it.

Tiffany: 3:42

In 2006, the series Dexter premieres on Showtime. It's an amazing show that I think I've watched about a dozen times over the years, and the new season premiered last year, which was like 20 years after the season finale of the one that ended before, and it was an amazing. It was just an amazing show. It was a great show. The protagonist is Dexter Morgan, who is a blood spatter analyst for the Miami Metro Police Department, who is also living a double life as a vigilante serial killer, and it's based on a book series called the Darkly Dreaming Dexter. Dexter has a very specific methodical practice that he uses to conceal himself from CSI investigation. He drapes the room in plastic, he has a kill kit with a knife and a knife spread, and he uses the table to tie his victims up on and stab them through the heart. Dexter justifies his killings by saying that he goes by a code. He only kills other people who have committed murder. Therefore, in his eyes, it's okay.

Wendy: 4:41

You know what's interesting that you chose a case like this? During the same week, I'm writing a script about someone who believed that, because he was killing sexual predators, that it was okay.

Tiffany: 4:53

Yeah, it's weird right.

Wendy: 4:55

Yeah, probably one of the first times that we've chosen a similar topic at the same time.

Tiffany: 5:00

Yeah, but this is a show, so I mean the killer himself will get into it, but the show Dexter is definitely based off of a vigilante serial killer. So yeah, that's similar in that way. But in the spring of 2008, in Edmonton, canada, mark Twichel is living with his wife and his daughter, and he seems to be living the dream. Mark was a cosplayer who loved the world of fantasy. It made him sad that he couldn't be the character he dressed up as. After it was over, mark was working as a salesman and was described as a very charming, charismatic type of person who could get people to like him. Up until this point, all seemed pretty normal for Mark, until he discovers Dexter. He identifies with the character and develops an obsession with him.

Tiffany: 5:45

Mark watches the episodes over and over. His job started to become affected by his obsessions because he spent most of his time emailing and texting about Dexter constantly. He also saw himself as an aspiring movie producer who wanted to become a millionaire. His wife, jess, was very unhappy with Mark sacrificing his job by asking to work at home more frequently because she had a new baby. She wanted Mark to keep his job and bring home that steady paycheck.

Tiffany: 6:12

This caused some rifts in their marriage because he was fixated on movie production and was neglecting his work schedule. The two started sleeping in different rooms because they weren't really getting along. They were only married less than a year and the problems were already prevalent, which was not good. Regardless, mark started making moves to get his movie career started. He started advertising that he had this big contract with Hollywood and was trying to raise over a million dollars so that he could produce a film. Mark was obviously lying about the contract but soon quits his job to focus on his movie career. And of course, this loser doesn't even tell his fucking wife so she's like completely in the dark that they don't have any income anymore. Wow, that poor woman.

Wendy: 6:54

Yeah, you know, I understand the idea of like affirmizing what you want and fake it till you make it, but that goes a little too far. Yeah, I'd say.

Tiffany: 7:03

But this guy, he's very unoriginal and you'll come to find out a lot more about that later. See, mark was a bit of a copycat. He never had any original ideas of his own. For example, he made Star Wars fan fiction and he even made a movie called Day Players, which was a ripoff of an HBO show. So for a little over a year Mark was pretending to go to work every day, but really he was lying to his family. So he literally was leaving for work, dressing up and everything, getting his little lunch pail and walking out and then coming home when he was supposed to be done work and nobody was the wiser because he just was living some. I mean, that takes a lot of effort, in my opinion, to like just go to work every day when you don't even have a job.

Wendy: 7:42

It shows a lack of remorse, because I think if I pretended to go to work one day and came home and I lied about it, it would eat me to the core. I'd be like you're right, you're right, I was out of the park, but it's, you know, to keep a whole part of himself separate, that's already a huge fucking red flag yeah. Yeah, that's a serial killer, red flag even.

Tiffany: 8:04

Yeah, right, yeah, why like that?

Wendy: 8:07

Yes, that's part of their main gig, isn't it?

Tiffany: 8:10

Mark still had money coming in to show his wife, though, because he was conning investors out of tens of thousands of dollars to fund him. One man gave him over $30,000 to start his movie. Eventually, mark had over $100,000 from investors, but instead of producing his movie, he was living off of their hard-earned money To have something to show for it. Mark gets the idea to make a short film inspired by Dexter Because, again, he can't have any fucking original movie ideas. This was his biggest cosplay of all the idea of becoming Dexter, and being Dexter was easy. All he had to do was murder somebody, so in his movie that's what he did. You didn't have to develop superpowers to become a Jedi to do this. There were some photos that I saw that really showcased his Dexter cosplay. Mark had, like similar features to Dexter. He was not as attractive.

Wendy: 9:01

You know this is a sidebar, as Star Wars makes me think of this game, but on the Oculus that Tiffany so kindly got me addicted to, there's a Darth Vader game where you get to use the Force like a Jedi and you can feel it vibrating in your hand as you're throwing shit or as you're using your lightsaber. It's fucking amazing. Okay, sorry, go on.

Tiffany: 9:22

There are some pictures on the internet with him in the same poses as some of the stills from the opening credits of Dexter, and for weeks he wrote detailed scripts for the film and kept it a complete secret from everybody. Mark then decided to rent a residential garage to use as a movie set. He names this movie House of Cards, and the premise includes a woman who invites men she met on the internet back to her place. When the man gets there, he is then overpowered by the killer and ultimately murdered. Mark hires a crew and some actors to get the movie started.

Tiffany: 9:55

Mark fixated specifically on the murder scene and had planned it out extensively. During this scene there's a masked actor who has a man tied to a chair and he is stabbed multiple times with a sword. They used a ton of red dye and corn syrup to make it as bloody as possible. After he finishes the movie, mark starts watching season three of Dexter. After catching up on the series, he realizes the film and the show weren't enough for his dark impulses. This is when Mark decides to make his fantasy a reality. He starts.

Wendy: 10:29

Oh, no, yeah, yeah. So this is our third superstar we've spoken about now.

Tiffany: 10:35

Superstar. Alls I've pictured was him sticking his hands under his armpits and then ripping amounts Superstar, superstar.

Wendy: 10:45

Well, I mean, we had the Joker, right. Oh yeah, um, you know, we've had plenty of the wannabe Hannibals, um, but this is okay. All right, this is.

Tiffany: 10:54

Dexter. This is Dexter. Now, yeah, mr Dexter, fuck out of here. Uh, so this is when Mark decides to make his fantasy a reality. He starts writing this manifesto called the SK Confessions. Basically, it's shorthand for his favorite author, stephen King.

Wendy: 11:12

Regarding Stephen King in elementary school, he was my favorite and I still think he's brilliant to this day, but I don't know.

Tiffany: 11:21

No, he was my favorite too. I like Stephen King, but you know what I don't like about Stephen King? I love his books, but I feel like he explains too much about what the room looks like.

Wendy: 11:30

Yes, like if you're spending sometimes you're spending a few pages sitting at a table fumbling through uh newspaper article and twirling at your mole and the overthinker is wondering why it's going on so long and maybe have something hidden in it. But it's just about the detail Exactly. But I love him for it and I guiltily do the same shit myself sometimes.

Tiffany: 11:53

so I got ADHD or something I don't know, or I don't know. I just have issues sitting still for long periods of time. Maybe I'm neurodivergent. I haven't been diagnosed, but I'm going to let you know that too much of that four pages that you describe in the wallpaper makes me insane. But his books are so fucking good. It's just that those parts sometimes I'll skip pages.

Wendy: 12:13

Yeah, you know who I think does the best balance of them all as far as a fiction writer is Anne Rice. Yes, she's a good writer too. She glides through so smoothly, adds just enough detail, but not too much for the ADD patient.

Tiffany: 12:28

Yeah, yeah, I like it better, like that concise, to the point.

Wendy: 12:33

She's eloquently concise, which is masterful. I wish I could do that. I'm more like Stephen King. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you should see my editing process. All right, sorry, let's go on. All right, that was cool.

Tiffany: 12:48

So the first line of the manifesto read this is my progression into how I became a serial killer. He documents his life, his thoughts, references his inspiration Dexter and then describes how he committed the crimes. Mark Twitchell was born on July 14th 1979 in Edmonton, canada. Edmonton is an oil town and it was rated one of the deadliest cities in Canada, although their crime rate was extremely low in comparison to New Jersey or even Massachusetts. Edmonton is nicknamed Deadmonton because it's the farthest city you can go up north before getting into the wastelands.

Wendy: 13:29

I love cities that have fucking names like that, you know, like Linlin, City of Sin and shit like that. Shit makes me, it cracks me up.

Tiffany: 13:38

I also thought it was funny that I think that they said that there was like 36 people died for like I don't even we'll just take a guess I can't remember the actual number, so don't quote me on this but I think it was like there was like 17,000 people, like 36 people, died in that one year and they were like oh my God, it's the deadliest city in Canada and I'm like dude, like that happens here, like constantly. And they made a joke on Lin's podcast on the left about how that's like a Friday night in like Detroit or something, and they had me cracking up Our country's embarrassing sometimes yeah.

Tiffany: 14:15

I mean, it doesn't make us tough in any way, it's actually like obnoxious. But the fact that it's so normalized, that crime is so frequent here that like when you hear a place like Canada, like saying, oh my God, this is a lot of crime, we're like what?

Wendy: 14:28

Yeah, that it's like a couple of clowns over there compared to the fucking circus over here.

Tiffany: 14:33

Exactly as far as Mark's childhood goes. It was pretty normal. He came from a loving two parent home and didn't have anything alarming or out of the ordinary happen, which tells me that he was just born a psychopath. I found this interesting and I know I've mentioned this like a bunch of times, but Lin's podcast on the left talked about this in their Mark Twitchell episode that Mark was born without a sense of smell and, according to a 2011 study, this is a telltale sign of a psychopath, because lack of electrical activity in the frontal lobe is what causes you to have a lack of sense of smell, because that's the same place that smells processed Tiffany you and I should be a little more careful about joking around my offspring, because she can't smell shit.

Wendy: 15:19

Oh shit, but she can't smell shit.

Tiffany: 15:22

Oh wow, has she ever like? Have you ever woken up? And she was standing over you with like a butcher knife or something?

Wendy: 15:29

Not yet. I've been good to my kids, but she, you know, also kind of her nerd, like the rest of us too. I think we should really start paying more attention. Yeah, we have to keep an eye on her.

Tiffany: 15:44

The only thing that gave anyone pause during his adolescence was that Mark was arrested twice for shoplifting from a grocery store which is the weirdest place to shoplift from, and some other minor things that weren't that big of a deal. As he grew, he started hanging out on Jedicom and talked about his favorite character, anakin Skywalker. Yes, great choice. Oh man, mark was obsessed with. I hated Star Wars, I really did. I know I'm going to probably get like bombarded with emails for saying that, but I'm just saying I was never into it. I never could get into it. I never understood what the obsession was with Star Wars, but I really like Star Wars.

Wendy: 16:30

But I will admit I haven't gone to the obsessive side like some of my friends have.

Tiffany: 16:36

Yeah, mark was obsessed with the prequels and he wrote in a post that he pretty much envied Anakin for killing a bunch of kids in one of the Star Wars movies.

Wendy: 16:45

No, that was a fucked up scene. It's one of the ones I actually hate.

Tiffany: 16:49

Yeah, well, he loved it. He admired him for that. He envied him for killing children.

Wendy: 16:55

Sick fuck man. That scene was terrible. It was like the worst scene of all of them.

Tiffany: 17:01

Yeah well, not to him. So Mark started getting into making films and did a bunch of short little copycat films. One was a parody of Judge Dredd called Judge Fred, in which Fred Flintstone plays Judge Dredd. He met his first wife, megan, on the internet, and love bombed the shit out of her. She was from Colorado Springs and he popped the question. Very soon after they met, megan agreed to marry him and flew out to Canada. After they married, everything was going fine until one night Mark asked her a question while she was lying in bed. He asked if she ever thought about killing someone. At that point she woke up out of the love bombing fog and realized she literally up and moved her entire life To Canada To be with a man that she barely even knew. He also told her he thought about killing a homeless man because no one would ever go looking for him, which understandably freaked her the fuck out. Megan convinced him to move to Peoria, illinois, and he had gotten a job as an appliance salesman.

Tiffany: 18:06

Mark was doing really good, except he was trolling around on the internet pretending to be a woman at night time, so just cat fishing people on there. In March he went to a dragon con in Atlanta, georgia. There he cheated on his wife with a fellow nerd. Mark confessed to his wife about the affair and the two divorced soon after. I wonder what she dressed up as Did he see her face Like? Was she in a full-bodied costume? Cause you usually think you're crazy at these cons. You know what if she?

Tiffany: 18:37

was dressed up as Darth Vader or something.

Wendy: 18:41

Well, I have a girlfriend who dressed up as a sexy version of one of Darth Vader's soldiers, one of the yeah, the power troopers or whatever they're called. They have stormtroopers. Oh yeah, that's it, stormtroopers. I don't know nothing about that shit, but it was actually a pretty hot photo shoot. I'm like, oh my God, did she just make a stormtrooper sexy yeah.

Tiffany: 19:05

Yeah, if it's all tits and then you just got the mask on, of course it will look good. But Mark moved back to Edmonton Canada, and kept working on his films. He created his own company called Express Entertainment, to make fan films. Mark met his next wife, jess, on plentyoffishcom, and three months after they met she was pregnant. They married and soon after had a child. That Halloween at the West Edmonton Mall, mark won Best Costume for his rendition of Transformers Bumblebee. You know who Bumblebee is, right, you've watched.

Wendy: 19:38

Transformers From Transformers. Yes, he's the cute one that can't speak very well.

Tiffany: 19:42

Yeah yeah, well, let's do. Dressed up as a Bumblebee and won the costume contest, so it must have been a real convincing Bumblebee. Yeah, but it just gets nerdy or nerdy as the story goes on. Which is it, isn't?

Wendy: 19:54

deering. Yeah, I was going to use that exact word, yeah, so yeah, so far he's pretty endearing, but I still know where it's leading, so my defenses are up.

Tiffany: 20:05

Yeah, yeah, like like as a no one, he's a piece of shit. I don't find it endearing, I just find him to be like a fucking, like super nerd. But like in my own way I'm kind of a nerd, so like I'm kind of into some of the things that he's doing.

Wendy: 20:18

Yeah, so it's yes, that's exactly right. If he wasn't a piece of shit, we would be hanging out with this guy, even if he was a little more extra than us in a couple of ways. You know, usually people that are fantastical about such creative things are fun and we're like you know and not crazy and killing people no.

Tiffany: 20:39

So this mall that he won the costume contest at it's the biggest mall in North America and it has a whole ass fucking dance club inside, which I thought was pretty awesome.

Wendy: 20:50

That is, that's dope. You and I have both been there, I think, to the countryside mall and Florida, where they have a nice skating rink in the middle.

Tiffany: 20:58

Oh yeah, I went there, but I didn't see no skating rink when I went.

Wendy: 21:02

Oh, man, that thing's awesome.

Tiffany: 21:03

I don't know if it's still there.

Wendy: 21:04

Well, it was the last time I was there, and really. Yeah, I love that mall and I think that's like the coolest thing ever.

Tiffany: 21:10

How the fuck did I miss that? I don't know. Maybe I missed it, I just didn't go down there or something, but anyways, you've been there the one in Clearwater right yeah, I even went to visit a couple of times while I was living there, but I never seen a skating rink.

Wendy: 21:22

Oh shit, you missed out then I'm sorry.

Tiffany: 21:24

I'm sorry about it. Oh well, little did Mark know that that was the last costume contest he would ever partake in until his arrest. A year later, in 2008,. Mark makes a Facebook account as Dexter Morgan, so his name is Dexter Morgan. On Facebook, people were commenting on his Dexter statuses because he would literally respond as if he was Dexter Morgan. So he would make statuses all of something that Dexter would say, and then he would go above that and then respond to people as Dexter Morgan and message them as Dexter Morgan.

Wendy: 21:59

Okay, that's where I tap out, yeah.

Tiffany: 22:02

I know he's getting even dirtier. Now he's getting just a whole level. I don't think we'll ever get to.

Wendy: 22:07

Nope, nope. He just surpassed us right there in this moment.

Tiffany: 22:11

It was like the ultimate cosplay, ultimate, ultimate. Shortly after he posted online that he was casting for a film, house of Cards which we talked about earlier, mark used the double garage to film the movie, which he rented in a bad neighborhood that was filled with mainly immigrant people who did not speak English, and that was for a reason because they wouldn't pay attention to his comings and goings. It was said, though, that he was a real dick on the set. He would have like temper tantrums if actors touched his samurai sword too much, because he didn't want them to ruin it. That's what he said, even though it was a prop in the fucking film. He also lost his shit over the duct tape, as if it was gold, and yeah, and he started complaining that the actors were using too much fucking duct tape.

Wendy: 23:04

Oh my God, I'm just picturing him like putting his hand on his hips.

Tiffany: 23:09

Hey guys, stop, you're using too much of the fucking duct tape. Yes, duct tape doesn't grow on trees, you know.

Wendy: 23:15

Yes, how did you?

Tiffany: 23:19

know, wait, don't touch my sword. I don't want fingerprints all over the blade. Put it down, yeah. After filming this short movie, mark felt that this wasn't enough. After the birth of his daughter, he still wasn't feeling empathy In fact he felt absolutely nothing for his daughter, which kind of set this in motion, that need to like feel something. Now came plans on who to kill. At first he thought he would go after married people who were willing to cheat on their spouses, but then he realized that was way too risky because they would be missed way too quickly. He settled on going after single men. After creating an account on plenty of fish under the name Sheena, he had stolen a picture of a beautiful blonde woman to post up as his profile from another dating site in a different area and then posted it on a sock puppet account.

Wendy: 24:13

I swear, this happens way more than people think it does.

Tiffany: 24:17

Oh yeah, it does Every day. Of course, men are flocking to this fake account like flies to shit and Mark starts sifting through all these profiles to see who his perfect victim was going to be Someone who wasn't too big, not too tall and not too muscular. He didn't want it.

Wendy: 24:33

Sounds like how we search for men. Yeah, pretty much.

Tiffany: 24:39

Yeah. He didn't want a situation where he would feel overpowered by his victim is basically what he was going for. So Mark settled yeah, me too. That's why I look for like scrawny men online. So Mark settles on a 36 year old Gilles. His name is Gilles. It's like French to Tro. The two start chatting and Mark is manipulating the conversation to get Gilles trust. Mark promises Gilles sex and then decides to meet up on a Friday.

Tiffany: 25:07

Fridays were the day that Mark told his wife that he was going to therapy. He called it therapy night. It wasn't just Mark's film career that put him and his wife at odds. It was the fact that he was cheating on dress with his old college girlfriend. He confessed to Jess in order to stay married and promised he would go to therapy, which I found this type of therapy to be a little unorthodox. But apparently for a psychopath it's the best kind of therapy. Please do tell. Oh, I will. So I say this because in his SK confessions he wrote I don't remember the exact place and time I decided to become a serial killer, but I remember the sensation that hit me when I committed the decision.

Tiffany: 25:48

It was a rush of pure euphoria. I felt lighter, less stressed at the freedom of the prospect. There was something about urgency, exploring my dark side, that greatly appealed to me and I'm such a methodical planner and thinker. The very challenge itself was enticing to behold. This case is so funny, even though the situations aren't funny, because there's people that actually got hurt. His confessions that he wrote are fucking hilarious because he says stuff like this the whole time. It's like literally like a journal he's writing in and he's writing like his innermost thoughts and it's like you could see the narcissism just like pouring out of him. Like I'm such a methodical planner and thinker, the very challenge itself was very enticing to behold.

Wendy: 26:34

It's like shut the fuck up that would you know what I have to admit as I've gotten older. What little shred of that shit I had in me is gone because I've done so many stupid humbling things. Do you know what I mean?

Tiffany: 26:51

Yeah, but just guys.

Wendy: 26:54

Yeah, no. To brag about yourself in a way that feels uncomfortable when somebody compliments you is an extreme that I can't imagine being serious about.

Tiffany: 27:04

But what blows my mind is he didn't think anybody was going to see this, so he's writing it to himself, which I find even more bizarre. It's not like he's like trying to outwardly project to other people that he's a methodical planner and thinker. It's like almost like he's trying to convince himself that he is there. He goes.

Wendy: 27:21

Those affirmations again, yeah right. Trying to manifest it I guess. He watched the secret, I think.

Tiffany: 27:28

Yeah, yeah. On October 3rd 2008, mark preps the garage for Gilles' arrival. Mark wouldn't give Gilles the address, but he did give him directions to get to the garage. Mark told Gilles that she would wait and watch out of the window for Gilles' arrival and that if she liked what she saw, she would let him into the garage. So he's speaking as Sheena is basically what I'm getting at. Gilles approaches the garage and walks in the room is covered in plastic with a table in the center of the room. Holy shit, yeah, he sets up a total dexter kill room.

Wendy: 28:04

Oh my God, wow yeah.

Tiffany: 28:07

Mark jumps out from in the dark he was hiding in the dark and he just jumps out at this guy with the mask on from his fucking film because the killer in his film has this weird-looking mask on. So he puts the mask on, I guess for a fucking effect or whatever, and then he just like he tases Gilles or what he thinks is a taser. It's just like a regular stun gun. Yeah, so guess what? Gilles don't go down without a fight and the two start fighting because the tase it didn't even do nothing to Gilles, it like just annoyed him. So the two start fighting and Mark pulls out a gun as they're fighting and Gilles reaches for the barrel of the gun. When he touches it he realizes that the gun is fucking plastic. It wasn't even a real gun. Yeah, okay, do you know what Mark said to Gilles when he grabbed the gun? This nerd tells him not to break it.

Tiffany: 29:01

I can't, yeah. So Gilles fought and scratched and clawed his way out of the garage. Once outside, Gilles having trouble trying to get to his feet and Mark grabs his legs and starts dragging him back inside. The two get interrupted when a couple taking a stroll walks past the fight. Gilles is saying help me, help me. And Mark is saying it's okay, we're just playing around.

Wendy: 29:25

Yeah, okay, I should not be laughing. I should be empathizing with the victim, but this seems like a cliche horror movie right now.

Tiffany: 29:32

That's what I'm saying is ridiculous. Now, just when you think help has finally arrived, the couple gets confused and doesn't want to get involved, so they just walk away In their defense, though what they see is a man on the ground wrestling with a man in a full on Halloween mask standing outside of a garage.

Wendy: 29:52

Right, they look like they're role playing.

Tiffany: 29:54

Yeah, so I think they were more scared than anything. Plus, it wasn't that great of a neighborhood. But thankfully Mark is now freaked out by the witnesses and doesn't want them to call the police. So he goes back into the garage and just leaves Jill on the gravel outside. Gilles jumped into his truck and drove away as fast as he could. When he gets home he goes online and he tries to pull up that sock puppet account so he can call the police and give them information about this dude. When Jill tries to look it up, he notices that the account has been deleted. It no longer exists. Plus, gilles deleted the messages between the two, not knowing he would need them later. And because of this Gilles thought the police wouldn't believe him. So he never calls him and he just tries to get it out of his mind.

Tiffany: 30:40

After Gilles had gotten away, mark was paranoid that the police were coming for him. He took down his kill room just in case and waited to see the flashing lights come in for him. But after a few days he realized there weren't any flashing lights and nobody was coming for him. And then he started planning his next attempt to live out his dexter fantasy One week later, on October 10th 2008,. Mark is added again.

Tiffany: 31:05

The new victim is 38-year-old John Aldinger. John was a normal guy who worked at the machine shop. He came from a close family and he had good friends. John had tried online dating for a while but never had gotten any luck before. But this time a beautiful woman was interested in him and he told his friends all about it. Her online name was Jen and she invited him over on Friday night. To prepare for Friday night, mark decides to drop the taser routine and instead introduces a lead pipe to incapacitate his victim. John follows the same instructions that Mark gave to Gilles the week before. John showed up 45 minutes early Because Mark wasn't expecting him. He wasn't ready. When John entered the garage, he notices that everything is covered in plastic and he catches Mark off guard. Mark introduces himself as Harry and says I'm a local filmmaker preparing a set that is supposed to look like a serial killer's little area here. You might have heard of my stuff. I'm the guy who put together the comedy feature at our local film festival. John responds I haven't heard of that.

Wendy: 32:13

Yes, go John.

Tiffany: 32:16

Mark shows John his prop gun and says the Jen will be about 20 minutes late. She was just running late. So John leaves the garage but after about 20 minutes he comes strolling back in because he really wants to meet Jen. Mark stalls again by picking up his phone and pretending to call Jen to see where she was. He says she's stuck in traffic and is going to be about a half hour late. Johnny decides to leave again and calls up his friend Dale and he tells Dale all about the weird shit that was going down and that he's just going to go home for the night. When he gets home he messages Jen on the dating app to find out what was up with the little situation. Jen says she's home now the traffic cleared up and that it was up to him whether he wanted to come back or not. So John thought about it and he decided to drive back to the garage and he walked back in. He saw Mark again alone and said I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment. Mark says you have no idea. And he wax him in the back of the head with a lead pipe. Johnny starts fighting back. Mark continues whacking Johnny in the skull with the lead pipe and ended it by sticking a knife in a Johnny's stomach. Mark then stabs Johnny in the throat and he dies about a minute or two later.

Tiffany: 33:28

Now, johnny wasn't quiet while the situation was going on. He was pleading with Mark while he was being bludgeoned. I don't want to get into too much detail, because it was really sad and I was crying like a little baby when I read his pleas in the SK Manifesto. It broke my heart because John was a good dude who just wanted to meet a girl and was a bit desperate to do so, which is why he took to online dating to begin with, and if you want to read the SK Manifesto, it is available.

Tiffany: 33:57

I'm going to link it. But there's some stuff that's blacked out, and some of that is some of the verbal stuff that happened between them too. So there is also a book I will also link in the show notes that you can check out that has more portions of the Manifesto that were blacked out online. Mark then proceeds to dismember John's body and describes it like this Dismembering a human body was a relatively unexciting event, but I had my ways of making it more fun. I sang to myself as I worked, I talked to myself. I reflected on the new tools that I would get to make the next one easier.

Tiffany: 34:34

How nice, yeah, yeah, how nice. Fucking scumbag Mark bags John's dismembered body after using a separating kit that he bought at a hunting store. He takes multiple breaks while he's dismembering Johnny to check his email, to make phone calls, to eat some snacks, to check his eBay page. Mark even talks about Johnny's guts in SK Confessions, saying that he expected a lot of gore like the movies, but instead they look like sausages. This very manifesto gives you the greatest insight into a psychopath with a complete lack of empathy, which I found horrifying and slightly fascinating at the same time, mainly because you don't usually get your hands on a serial or a potential serial killer's fucking journals. Most of the time they're too smart to write that shit down Right.

Wendy: 35:26

Not only that, but when you do get a version of, you know, when the killer realizes that they're fucked already, they just decide well, I'm going to be a super serial killer now, and you know, confess that. But they've got one life sentence. They might as well make it 20 worth of stories, you know.

Tiffany: 35:42

Exactly. But this dude, he wrote this all before and never thought anyone would say it, that he was too smart. So when they did get ahold of it, it was him just telling the honest truth about what he thought about everything, which is really fucking crazy. After the dismemberment, mark takes the trash bags with Johnny's body parts and loads them into the back of Johnny's red Mazda 3 and then gets into the car. He then realizes he can't drive a stick shift and pulls the car into the garage to park it there, because he didn't think ahead that it's possible that this man drives a stick shift. He then calls his wife. He lies to her and says he's at the gym. She questioned the fuck out of him because she knows he's full of shit. But he has an answer for every question Just rapid firing, he's just at it and then he goes home. But he was itching to tell someone what he had done, because what's living out your fantasy if you can't tell anybody about it, right? So he decides to take to the internet and he messages a fellow Dexter pal. He basically said that he crossed a line and he liked it.

Tiffany: 36:49

He didn't outright admit to the murder, but he said enough to allude to it In SK Confessions. He admits to telling his seven month old daughter about the murder because she couldn't tell anyone. This is what he says. The cool thing about a seven month old is that you can openly tell them anything and they can't rat you out. I needed that for my daughter, since anyone else I could spill would be dialing 911 before I finished. I knew I only had a limited amount of time before Zoe's comprehension got to the level where that wouldn't fly, so I got in as much talk time as possible in her early development when her words were just soothing sounds to get her used to the English language.

Wendy: 37:30

It is lucky. At least I hope that she's too young to remember.

Tiffany: 37:34

Yeah, but now that it's all said and done, she's going to remember because it's all over the documentaries and everything that he confessed this. So like, even if she didn't remember, she would look into it and eventually find out. Well, yeah, she probably already knows now, but what I'm saying is I'm sure that she could imagine what that would have been like when somebody tells you that something happened to you and then you literally sit there and almost hallucinate the entire situation as if you've been in that situation Because you know your father and if he's admitted to saying a very specific thing to you, you could probably, with just your imagination, see that whole scenario playing out in your head and that would fucking haunt me. If that happened to me and that was my father, I know that would haunt me forever.

Tiffany: 38:22

Mark went to John's apartment and broke into his home. He took all the cash that was on his dresser and he found John's laptop. John's computer was still logged into all of his accounts, so Mark took it upon himself to go through the computer to set up a story for John's disappearance. He went on a John's dating profile and deleted it. He logged on a Johnny's Facebook account and wrote a status that said he would be taking off to the Caribbean. He stole John's laptop and emails and everyone on his list saying I ran off with a girl down to Costa Rica. I'll be back in a couple of months. I met my sugar mama. Then he emailed John's work to tell his boss that he quit his fucking job. He also changed Johnny's relationship status from single to interrelationship to keep the ruse going strong.

Tiffany: 39:06

Of course, this was out of character for John to just take off like that. Also, the way his Facebook statuses were written. His friends and family knew that that wasn't his style, so his concerned friends and family went to authorities to see if they could get help to figure out what the fuck was going on. They tried to file a missing persons report and give all of the emails to the police, but the police refused to file the report. They thought that Johnny was having a midlife crisis and took off with this fake woman.

Tiffany: 39:34

Mark bought a barrel on the internet to dispose of Johnny's remains. He loaded the barrel into his Pontiac and drove to his parents' house. That's where Mark decided to try to burn Johnny's body. In the backyard of his parents' house, he threw cup after cup of gasoline onto the body and set it on fire. But the body wasn't burning like he had planned. And you know why? Because you can't just throw like little cups of fucking gasoline onto a body and expect it to like incinerate and cremate, unless you got a real hot fire going on there.

Wendy: 40:07

The wood furnaces that I've used at the last two homes that I had were hot enough, or something like that, and big enough for something like that too.

Tiffany: 40:17

Yeah, but he's like burning a barrel on his. He obviously didn't do research. Huh, he's got issues. So something happens In the distance. He hears a siren and then he starts freaking the fuck out Because he thinks they're coming for him now. So he grabs a garden hose and starts spraying the body down, thinking that he's going to get caught. But the emergency vehicle drives right past the property and off into the distance. So he's all it's like when you're in front of a cop and you know they turn their lights on and you think you're getting pulled over.

Wendy: 40:46

But you're not.

Tiffany: 40:47

And they just drive real fast after you pull over on the side of the road. I feel like that was kind of the feeling he had inside at that very moment, but it's the tortiest thing he could have done. He puts the fire out. It's like commit to it now, because if you put the fire out now there's smoke.

Wendy: 41:04

He's like I didn't start the fire. Yeah, da, da, da, da, da, da da da da, there's a fucking moron.

Tiffany: 41:10

Mark thinks this isn't the best idea because I'm going to get caught. So he drives the body back to his house and decides to call up his old girlfriend to try to get some ass. At some point he gets pulled over for speeding and in his trunk are pieces of evidence that could have gotten him arrested on the spot. The cop notices Mark Star Wars license plate which says dark Jedi it's like DRK Jedi. He approaches.

Wendy: 41:37

That's an oxymoron, I know you know. If you're going to do that, become a Sith. Charge that lightsaber with all your hate and fury. Don't call yourself a fucking Jedi, motherfucker.

Tiffany: 41:50

Right. He approaches the window and he says the cop says the force wasn't very strong with you tonight because you passed a fully marked patrol car without even realizing it. Oh my, god.

Tiffany: 42:04

He wrote Mark a ticket and then made a few more jokes about Star Wars before sending him on his way, and at one point he even asked him if he was Darth Vader. Everyone who was close with Johnny was pissed off at the police and they decided to take matters into their own hands. A couple of his close friends decided to break into his apartment to see if they could figure out what the fuck was going on. They did find John's passport and his suitcases, so they know that he didn't take off anywhere. The police now agree that something's not right, so they call hospitals, hotels and airports to see if anyone has spotted Johnny. Police noticed that John's red Mazda 3 is missing and put out a bolo on the missing car. They didn't get a new lead until about eight days later when they noticed that Johnny had sent out an email to a friend the night that he went missing. It said I'm going to meet a girl. Here's the directions in case something happens to me. So obviously he had some kind of spidey sense going on there.

Tiffany: 43:01

The directions led police right to Mark Twitchell's garage. Police called Mark to come down to the unit and he agrees to take the 45-minute drive. He tells police they can look around the garage if they want, but he hasn't been there in weeks. He had trouble getting the lock open. Then it tells the police that's strange, Someone was messing with the lock. All the numbers are all messed up. The police were looking around and Mark's chatting with them, all excited, trying to tell him about his movie studio, thinking he's smarter than a cop. The police noticed a bunch of cleaning supplies on the table and asked Mark when was the last time he was there. He states he hasn't been there since September. The police find a receipt that is dated October 15th. So Mark starts backtracking saying oh, wait a minute. Yeah, yeah, that's right, I was just here to drop off some cleaning supplies.

Wendy: 43:48

Yeah, and some lime. And, by the way, I stole some of that duct tape.

Tiffany: 43:54

The duct tape. Police asked Mark to come back to the station for some questioning, and he obliges. Mark was asked about the murder movie and told how strange it was that a man with the address to the garage is missing. Mark swerves every question and has an answer for everything. When he is asked by investigators Then to deflect the officer's questions, he starts going on and on about his movies again, what his plans are for the next movie, and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, with no probable cause. They had to let Mark go, but not without letting him know that they were looking into him. Police enlist the help of a CSI team to comb through the garage again. When they called Mark to ask if they could go through the garage again, he agrees to let them in, but not without adding some new information. He tells the police.

Tiffany: 44:44

I forgot to tell you I bought a red car off a guy. I don't know if it's relevant to your investigation, but I thought I should mention it. Why? Why, he's trying to get ahead, I guess. So the story goes. I was sitting in my car when a man tapped on my window and said hey, do you want to buy a car? Mark says I don't have enough money to buy a car. The man says how much money do you have in your wallet? So Mark says $40. The man says sold or something to that effect. Mark then says he couldn't drive it because it was a stick shift so he left it at his friend's house. This was the same friend who gave Mark 30 grand as a sponsor for his film.

Tiffany: 45:25

His friend, josh, didn't notice that there was blood all over the bumper of the car. John's body wasn't in there anymore. Mark had dismembered the body even more than he had before and then dumped it into a sewer. So he took the body out of the trunk after it was dismembered and then dismembered it more, so that it was even in smaller pieces. And then he goes on this long tangent about what he was doing during that part of dismemberment and then takes it. And then he was going to throw it over a bridge but he got like spooked about it being found. So then he dumped it into the sewer system.

Tiffany: 45:59

Up until this point there weren't any discrepancies. But in the book the police didn't even believe that Mark was responsible for Johnny's murder until he mentioned the red car. But police said in at least three documentaries that I saw that they suspected him the whole time. Of course we'll never find out the middle ground, but the way it was described is that the police were looking for the car the whole time and not looking for Mark per se.

Tiffany: 46:25

The police find the car about a mile from Mark's garage, parked in his friend's driveway. They confirm that the vehicle is John Altingers and confront Mark. During a second interview at the station, the detectives say right to Mark's face that he knows that he had something to do with John's disappearance. Mark instantly clams up and asks for a lawyer because they don't have any physical evidence to prove that he murdered the man. They had to let him go for now, but not before they seized the Mazda 3. Police search the vehicle and they find blood stains in the trunk, a knife covered in tissue and blood and a laptop computer. Inside the computer they find a deleted file. This was Mark's SK Confessions Manifesto. This idiot put the file in the trash can on his computer but never emptied the fucking trash can. So as soon as the police opened the trash can, there's his little diary. Oh shit.

Wendy: 47:19

Have you ever done that with deleted photos?

Tiffany: 47:21

Yeah, me too, I don't do it anymore but it's happened.

Wendy: 47:24

But if I had, a murder manifesto.

Tiffany: 47:26

you bet your ass I would have made sure that thing was gone forever. So police surveilled Mark's whereabouts until they could get an arrest warrant to make sure that he didn't kill again. You know, At first police thought that Mark was making snuff films and selling them on the darkwebs. Once they obtained and watched his horrible little films, they soon realized that they were no snuff films. The police questioned his wife, who was in complete denial, understandably. When she realized the gravity of what was happening, though, she broke down and started crying. Detectives told her that they had a search warrant for their home and she left with their child. And she also left Mark too, but not because of that. Mark was staying at his parents' house at the time because his wife had thrown him out for something else, completely Probably his cheating and lying, but I'm not really sure exactly what happened there.

Wendy: 48:14

That was my first assumption because, he's not faithful and she knows it.

Tiffany: 48:19

Yeah, and he's a liar. He's like a pathological liar. So inside the home, police find bloodstained pants that had recently been washed and a blank Costa Rica postcard stack. The CSI team went back to the garage and found small amounts of blood in the cracks of the table and blood spatter on the upper frame of the door. When DNA testing came back, police knew that Mark was responsible for the murder of Johnny Artinger. Meanwhile, mark is making his latest cosplay costume, because he's not aware that they're going to arrest him yet. He's making an Iron man costume for the next Halloween costume contest.

Wendy: 48:57

I can't, I press about. I love Iron man and I also like the song Iron man, and all I could think of was I am Iron man.

Tiffany: 49:08

Thank you. So he gets an email from an investor that says that they're interested in investing in his movies. He receives a check from the investor and they complimented him on one of his films, saying that they wanted to invest even more money. So he says let's meet this Friday. The day of the meet is Halloween. He walks to the end of the street with his Halloween tickets in his pocket, ready to meet this new investor at a coffee shop before he goes and dresses up as Iron man to try to win this costume contest. As soon as he gets to the end of the street, a white van fucking speeds towards him and slams on its brakes, and a bunch of cops and tactical gear jump out of the van and surround them. The whole thing was a ruse and the investor was a cop. So this little prick thinks his career is about to take off and that he got away with murder and that he was going to the ball that night in his little Iron man costume. And boom, get on the ground motherfucker.

Wendy: 50:04

He's still role playing, though, so he's enjoying it still Maybe, I don't know.

Tiffany: 50:08

So when the police had shown up to Mark's parents' place to search it, get this right. His father says to the officer let me give you some advice. Have it besectomy.

Tiffany: 50:18

This is one of those times where it's like a cut dry case, but it's so unbelievable when it hit the newspapers that there was a new killer in Edmonton, gilles Tetreault came forward with his near-death experience just a week before the death of Johnny Artinger. The media nickname marked the Dexter killer. There was no body, so police were scrambling to find this man. They transport Mark back to the garage to see if they could get him to reveal where he took John's body. They even placated his ego, like during the whole video, and tried to get him to, like you know, make it seem like it was like a little fun excursion so that they could try to find this dude's body. Eventually, on June 3rd 2010, mark gave police a map to find John's body. So they did eventually find John's remains and were able to give the family some closure, which was amazing.

Tiffany: 51:06

In March of 2011, mark goes to trial. He surprises everyone when he claims self-defense. He told the court that these men meeting him at his garage were just a way to gain publicity for his movie. He was going to turn House of Cards into a trifecta a book, a movie and a campaign project. He was going to create an urban legend. When the movie came out, the lured men would see that it was all a ruse and get film coverage. Mark said that Gilles was just there for him to scare and not to kill and that that was a part of his movie idea he had. Mark said that Gilles overreacted and that's why he got away. Mark claimed that he was totally upfront about being a filmmaker and that when Johnny showed up he tried to convince him to play a part of it.

Tiffany: 51:51

John didn't believe Mark and got angry. John allegedly grabbed a pipe and started swinging at Mark. A fight ensued and then Mark stabbed John. He claimed he freaked out and dismembered the body. Everyone knew he was full of shit, even the jury. In the first five fucking hours he was found guilty of murder one, because I mean it was the dude was hitting the back of the head, so he didn't attack him first. There was no defensive wounds. You know what I mean? It wasn't like magic thing that he could have claimed self-defense. There's no fucking way he would have got away with that.

Wendy: 52:23

You know this dude's 100% guilty. Oh yeah, did they by chance have this journal of his during that trial?

Tiffany: 52:31

Yeah, oh shit, he was fucked. Oh yeah, he was real fucked. That was reading right from the journal, everything that happened. So Mark Sweat-Twitchell was sentenced to life in prison and while he was in prison all of the inmates were terrified of Mark, which I found fucking hilarious. They thought that he was this crazy Dexter killer who made snuff films. Investigators said that Dexter didn't cause him to kill, that he already had that in him and Dexter gave him the push that he needed to facilitate it.

Tiffany: 52:58

I wish I could find more clips of the movie House of Cards, but this atrocity was banned and you can only find it on documentaries that had access. On its content, it's not a real murder but it's rather one of those Mark's fantasies that. I don't know why it was banned, other than maybe because he recreated the movie in real life. But I decided to compile a little list of movies that if anybody's seen and wants to talk about they can email us at roganwicked at yahoocom. Movies that were banned in certain countries for their legal repercussions.

Tiffany: 53:32

I'm a horror movie freak but my favorite horror genre is shock films, basically because they're the most disturbing real horror movies that shock, literally shock the senses. I have one that my ex-boyfriend introduced me to called Irreversible, and it's a French horror film that plays from the ends to the beginning and there's a 20-minute rape scene in it. That's so realistic that I won't even walk into a subway terminal alone after seeing that film. I figured, since we were talking about cinema this entire episode I'd give you a list of films that were banned all over the world that I would have liked to have seen for myself. Cannibal Holocaust was ranked as one of the most controversial films of all time. It was released in 1980, and it was so gruesome that the Italian government tried Regiro uh Dio Dotto I can't say the Italian name, diodato, diodato maybe for his uh murder of the lead actress. He literally had to walk this woman into the courtroom to prove that she was still alive.

Wendy: 54:30

Well, that precipitated into some intensity, didn't it?

Tiffany: 54:34

Yeah, another film. It was an Italian film. It was called Lizard in a Woman's Skin. This movie had a scene depicting the violent deaths of dogs. It was so real that the filmmakers were accused of animal cruelty and had to bring the fake dogs to court to avoid prosecution. Afterwards, rambaldi ended up doing the special effects for King Kong, the head design for Alien and created ET for Steven Spielberg.

Tiffany: 55:03

Guinea Pig, flower of Flesh and Blood, got the attention of the FBI after someone reported it for being a snuff film. This was a Japanese movie that was so violent, bloody and gory that the filmmakers were forced to release a documentary called the Making of Guinea Pig to prove that the movie was special effects and that the woman was not actually murdered on camera. The Carnage Collection was a film that came under fire when a mom downloaded the film for her kids because Santa Claus was on the cover. She went to authorities after she and her children watched the film and in one scene a woman is stabbed repeatedly in the vagina. Another part Santa says suck my motherfucking jingle balls and it was investigated as a snuff film.

Wendy: 55:56

You wait till this Christmas, we're gonna get that.

Tiffany: 55:59

We gotta get that, we have to. It was investigated as a snuff film, but eventually the charges were dropped but the filmmakers were held in jail for a bit because of the law on banning the production of obscene material. I'm gonna watch a few of these, if I can dig them up somewhere, and I'll give you my opinion on whether or not they were good or bad, as they seem mainly because one of the movies that was on this list was Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and that's one of my favorite movies of all time and I don't really think that that was that bad. As far as like horror goes, I don't think that was like shocking, maybe for the time period, but that was about it. That's one.

Wendy: 56:35

I'm familiar with is the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Tiffany: 56:38

Yeah, so that's pretty much it. I mean, do you have any thoughts on this, or I?

Wendy: 56:42

do. I think that he is just as much of a clown as many of the other serial killers that we have discussed that. You were very thorough and thank you for that, and I am totally gonna check out those movies. You should definitely watch Dexter. Well, I can't commit to a show.

Tiffany: 57:03

All right. Well, you're gonna have to eventually.

Wendy: 57:05

That's a great series. Yeah, eventually I will, I mean because it sounds interesting as hell, all right, well, the next one's got to be Dexter Hell yeah, Actually, yeah, because I don't have a next one, so that's a good idea.

Tiffany: 57:16

Yeah that's like a huge one. So if you guys want to check out our Facebook page, our Twitter, our Instagram, our YouTube channel or any of our other platforms it's Rogue and Wicked Podcast you can check out our Patreon wwwpatreoncom slash rogueandwicked and on our Patreon page our Tier 1 listeners You'll get bonus content, pictures and polls. For our Tier 2 listeners, you get one bonus episode including all the other accoutrements, and our Tier 3 listeners get two bonus episodes a month and all the other accoutrements. If you want to check out Wendy's book Sage, it's available for purchase on roguepoetnet. And if you want to email us with any stories or if you've seen any of these movies and you want to talk about them and let me know if they're downloadable or something, then hit me up at rogueandwicked at yahoocom and we will talk to you guys next time. Bye.