The Manson Family part III: the Fall of His Cult

Could you imagine being lured into the thrall of one of America's most notorious cult leaders? Brace yourself as we navigate through the dark maze of Charles Manson's life and the chilling crimes committed by his cult followers. From the tragic betrayal and murder of musician Gary Hinman to the infamous Tate-LaBianca murders, we unravel the haunting details of these heinous acts. 

We don't just recount the bloody tales of the Manson family. Discover the sinister psychological tactics Charles Manson used to control his followers. Hear the heart-wrenching story of a 17-year-old girl, drawn into Manson's deadly web and brutally assaulted. We also shed light on the futile efforts of the Manson family to mislead investigators by randomly killing post the La Bianca murders. 

The reign of terror eventually had to reach its end. Learn about the thrilling escape of Linda Kasabian from the deadly clutches of the Manson family and the subsequent fall of this infamous cult. From the issuance of warrants to the raid at the Barker Ranch and the charges laid against the members, we guide you through the final stages of their horrifying journey. It's a chilling tale of manipulation, murder, and madness that will leave you questioning the depths of human cruelty. Tune in, if you dare.

Transcript

tiffany: 0:13

Welcome to Rogue and Wicked. So yeah, we went to the same concert, apparently, me and Wendy. They were back to back, so they appeared in Heart for Connecticut first, and then came down to Philadelphia, which I went to the one in Philadelphia and it was for the Queens of the Stone Age and Phanagram, which my jam is. Some Phanagram, queens of the Stone Age, I could do it out. I like them, I love them, but I love Phanagram like 10 times more than I love Queens of the Stone Age.

wendy: 0:43

Well, what was ironic about it is that Tiffany told me Phanagram was one of her favorites and I never heard of them and she said she was seeing them and seeing them soon. And I was like, well, that's crazy, because I'm going to the Queens of the Stone Age concert, which is why I was there. I was there for the Queens of the Stone Age, but Phanagram was phenomenal. I loved her energy and she gives me some hope because she's got a soft feminine voice and she hits pretty hard. Yeah.

tiffany: 1:13

I mean, she's really good, I love her and the concert was pretty good. I mean, I sat out on the lawn at the Mann Center in Philadelphia and it was wild. It was like it wasn't wild in the sense that there was people doing all kinds of crazy shit, it was more wild. It was weird being out in public after all this time at an actual concert and being on the lawn. It was really crowded and there's a lot of young people chilling and I felt like the oldest person there. But I really didn't care because it was a really good time and I really enjoyed it.

wendy: 1:45

That really does put it into perspective. I thought it was a great concert and we were in Bridgeport, connecticut, not Hartford, which is my fault for telling you otherwise. I didn't realize it until we punched it in the GPS. I was like, oh shit, we're not going to Hartford, we're going to Bridgeport. But anyway, that was a beautiful theater too. The setup was amazing, the sound and the lighting was superior to many that I've been to. I was quite surprised and I've gone to a lot of concerts, but outside of going to some underground concerts and Wichita, during St Patrick's Day they had a big Irish thing going on in downtown Tampa and that was badass. It was a cover band that covered a lot of my favorite Irish bands. I haven't really been to a concert since before the pandemic.

tiffany: 2:34

Yeah, I know me either. I haven't really been to many either. I think the last one I went to was Sublime Went Rome and they actually just came around like yesterday, early yesterday, and we're playing and Philly, and I missed them and I was so pissed.

wendy: 2:46

Speaking of Hartford and concerts, ministry is going to be playing in Hartford, I think on the 10th of next month, and I might go to that. I actually my better half will be out of town, so I might have to go with a group of friends and band up. But, like fuck man, I don't want to miss. I don't want to miss Ministry again. They're one of my absolute favorites and they just came out with a song. I'm going to have to link it to this podcast. That is so fucking, it's so sick. I'm just going to. It's very political, or anti political, if you will, and I love what it connotates. It's great.

tiffany: 3:21

Yeah.

wendy: 3:22

So, speaking of music, which makes me think of Marilyn Manson, where do you and Charles Manson again today? I'm sorry because you were killing it and I'm so invested now.

tiffany: 3:34

Don't play coy, because we were on episode three. We didn't even finish the Manson. I know we did.

wendy: 3:39

I know, I know you've got a whole bunch of scripts under your belt, right now, oh yeah. So I wasn't sure if you were leaving me on a two week cliffhanger or if we're getting back into it. I know we're jumping back into it.

tiffany: 3:49

Yeah, yeah, fuck, yeah, we got to get this bad boy up.

tiffany: 3:53

So last week's episode we talked about the family's descent into madness, charles Manson preparing the family for the race war and his anger towards Terry Melcher for not signing him as a superstar.

tiffany: 4:07

On March 24th a man in a convertible coaxed a 17 year old girl to get into the car. She was walking along Chatsworth Street about two miles from the ranch. They took the minor to the ranch and she saw men, women and children lounging around with strobe lights. People were drinking and smoking something. She asked where she was and the woman replied this is where it is. She told the family she was hungry and they offered her corn flakes but said that the dog was to eat before the women were to eat. And then she was introduced to Charlie, who took her out to explain the game to her. He trapped her in an automobile and raped her. Scared she played along until she asked if someone would drive her to the liquor store to get some cigarettes, which was a smart move. When she arrived at the store she escaped and ran home to tell her parents, but unfortunately her parents didn't want to bring shame on the family, so they never reported the incidents to authorities and Manson had ultimately gotten away with it, and this is important because this happened before the murder of Gary Hinman.

tiffany: 5:12

Now, gary Hinman was born on December 24th 1934 in Colorado. He was a student at the University of California and graduated with a degree in chemistry. Gary also continued his education by pursuing a PhD in sociology. His friends described him as a kindhearted man who had an open door policy to transience. He purchased a home into Panga Canyon and welcomed people to come and stay as long as they liked. Gary was a talented musician who worked at a music shop and taught the bagpipes drums, piano and trombone.

wendy: 5:47

That is so eclectic and amazing.

tiffany: 5:51

Oh yeah, he knows everything, which is cool, because I always like people play multiple instruments.

wendy: 5:57

Yeah, I know, my kids had a music teacher named Steven, an old gentleman who could play all instruments except the violin, which was the only one I wanted to learn. But yeah, my youngest plays the drums, Trinity plays guitar and Vivian plays piano, and he taught them all.

tiffany: 6:14

Yeah, that's awesome. He was also a drug dealer who manufactured mescaline in his basement. Gary was involved in I don't know how to say this, but I think it's Nishi Ren Shoshu Buddhism and was planning to go to Japan to explore his spiritualism. Gary befriended some of the family's followers, bobby Bucalil mainly. That was like his go-to person. We talked about how Bobby Bucalil had let Manson stay on his property into Panky Canyon earlier in the last episode, and this was the same property I was talking about earlier when I mentioned that they stayed with Bobby for six weeks. The night before they decided they were going to rob Gary.

tiffany: 6:54

Bobby purchased 1,000 tabs of mescaline from Gary. Bobby sold all of the acid and it was beat. All of his customers were complaining that it was weak and it didn't work. Bobby asked Gary to give him the thousand dollars back and it sounds like a fair deal, except that Manson thought that Gary had about 20,000 dollars that he was sitting on in his home.

tiffany: 7:19

On July 25, 1969, charlie sent Robert Bucalil, susan Atkins and Mary Bruner over to Gary's house to scare him into giving them the money. Gary told them listen, I don't have any money to give you. Bobby doesn't like that answer, so he beats him up a bit to see if that'll like turn a no into a yes. It didn't work. So Bobby calls Charlie to tell him that Gary doesn't have the money.

tiffany: 7:43

Charlie goes to Gary's home with a sword and then threatens him, tells him that he owes the family and that he needs to pay. So Charlie slices off a portion of Gary's ear and then cuts his cheek open to get him to comply. Bobby is now pissed at Charles and questions him as to why he would hurt his friend so badly. And Charlie says to show you how to be a man. Charlie gets fed up and then tells Bobby you know what to do. Bobby panics and then he uses dental floss to stitch up Gary's cheek. He thought about taking him to the emergency room, but he knew that he would be arrested. And at that point he started realizing there was no other way out of this situation.

wendy: 8:25

Right, because it's a criminal act in the first place. It'd all be in trouble if anyone said anything and Charles met and knew that.

tiffany: 8:32

Mm-hmm, yep. So Bobby ultimately kills his best friend by stabbing him in the chest two times, dips his hands in Gary's blood and then he puts a paw print on the wall to make it look like it was the Black Panthers that had killed Gary to incite the race war that they were awaiting. But here's the problem. The autopsy states that Gary was stabbed five times. One was the laceration on the side of the face, another was to the scalp, but it didn't penetrate his skull. The third, fourth and fifth were on his chest. Then Bobby writes political piggies on the wall.

tiffany: 9:08

On August 6, bobby Bucalio fell asleep in Gary Hinman's stolen vehicle. He was pulled off of the highway at I can't say this Cuesta Grade C-U-E-S-T-A or Grade it's probably Grade I'm saying it wrong A-A-R-O. The police found Bobby inside the bloodstained vehicle with a Black Panther paw print. He was arrested and eventually convicted of the murder. But after the murder of Gary Hinman, manson realized he could get the group to kill for him, which was complete control in his eyes, and he had big plans for the family's future. Manson had gotten into studying what would cause a mass freakout and came across this stuff called Belladonna, aka Deadly Night Shade, after a biker showed the plant to him. Charlie tried it and was in a coma for three days. So he devised a plan to put it into the water reservoir to cause mass chaos. He also toyed with the idea of putting LSD into the drinking water for the same effect. The family took the plants and made jug after jug of the stuff in preparation for the takeover.

tiffany: 10:13

On August 8, 1969, tex and Linda were selected to go to a creepy crawly mission with Susan Atkins and Patricia Crenwinkel. That was what Charlie called the home invasions that he sent the girls on, where they would break into people's homes and rearrange their furniture. Before they left, they were given white capsules filled with cocaine or meth. The group took them with no questions asked. They had driven to Sharon Tate's home where she was hanging out with her hairdresser JC Brang, wojciech Frikowski and coffee heiress Abigail Folger. Sharon's friends were keeping her company while her husband, roman Polanski, was in London for the premiere of his movie Rosemary's Baby. Oh my god, I've heard of that. Yeah, it's an old horror movie.

wendy: 10:59

I think I might have even seen that a long time ago. Yeah, it was very popular.

tiffany: 11:03

Sharon and the three were just like hanging out, talking, having a few drinks, just having some good, clean fun. You know Well, I wouldn't call it clean because they were doing drugs too. But the house was beautiful, with a huge in-ground lagoon pool in the back and the guest house was on the property. Inside there was a living room decked out in retro furniture with a loft hanging above the sofa. There's a ladder to get to the loft which gave it a very homey feel. There was a long hallway that housed multiple bedrooms. Abigail was dressed in a nightgown and hanging out in the living room area, sharon was on the bed in a two-piece night set with her eight and a half month pregnant belly protruding from the middle and she was talking to her hairstylist, slash friend, slash ex-lover, j Shebring.

tiffany: 11:49

The family drove up to Benedict Canyon to see Yellow Drive a little after midnight. Tex gets out of the vehicle, he climbs up the telephone pole and cuts the phone line outside of the gate. The road was very narrow and had a strip of homes. Before you ended up at the end of C L O Drive, he spotted an 18-year-old named Steven Parent who was visiting the guest house on the property. He was visiting the groundskeeper to see if he wanted to buy his transistor radio. The groundskeeper decided that he wasn't interested, so Steven left and was getting into his car when he pulled up to the gate, tex pulled out his gun, stuck it in Steven's face and Steven said to Tex please don't hurt me, I won't tell anyone. And Tex shot him four times in the face and left him with a slash on his hand.

wendy: 12:35

What was the slash on the hand for?

tiffany: 12:37

I don't know which. I think that it was more than one person, because they were all involved in this and there was there's some information later on that might clear that up a little bit, but it's not concrete, because the only people that really know are the people that were there.

tiffany: 12:50

So it wasn't an insignia or anything that they left on all the bodies, this was just a random yeah, it was like a random slash on his hand after he was shot four times in the face, which makes me think that somebody else went to the car with him. But they don't like really rat on each other like that, so it's kind of hard to decipher whether somebody actually was with Tex when he when he killed this boy.

wendy: 13:12

Wow, that's, that's strange. Yeah, it's weird.

tiffany: 13:15

So Susan Atkins was waiting in the bushes and she heard what was going on. Susan heard the gunshots ring out and that's when she realized that Tex had shot the boy to death before he broke in through the front window of the house and let Susan through the front door. Here's the scary thing about this. I mean this whole thing's kind of scary, but this particular part here.

tiffany: 13:36

The day before, Frank Guerrero was painting the nursery because Sharon was going to have the baby in about two weeks or so, so he removed the screens from the windows, I'm guessing to just like paint the sills or something. But when Tex entered the home he was quiet as a fucking mouse, and it's because the screens were missing, so he could just climb right in the window and I think the dude left the windows unlocked. But when Tex entered the home, someone asked him who are you? And he said I am the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business. Sketchy bastard. Yeah, well, if you, if you noticed that quote was also in the devil's rejects, Yep, but he did say it differently. He said I am the devil and I'm here to do the devil's work. He changed the last word of it.

wendy: 14:18

That's one I definitely saw and, by the way, I did see Rosemary's baby too. Oh good, you know what it was. Is that you said 1969, and I could have sworn it was 1968. So it caused a dilemma in my mind. I'm like that doesn't seem right. Were you googled it, damn straight I did.

tiffany: 14:37

So he says I am the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business. The confusion and panic just set in now because everybody realizes that shit's about to hit the fucking fan. Sharon Tate was sitting on her bed talking with JC Bring when the two were surprised by the family. The trio rounded up Sharon and Jay who were sitting on Sharon's bed talking. Abigail was in her room reading a book when Susan Atkins enters the room and Abigail all innocently like waves to Susan Atkins because she thinks that she was like one of Sharon's friends who were like visiting because she always had people coming in and out of the house. She likes waving to her like hey, what's going on, you know. And unfortunately for her, the threesome brought all the guests into the living room where Frikowski was fast to sleep on the sofa. All four were tied up. Sharon and Jay were tied back to back by the neck with the rope. The rope was thrown over the rafters so if Sharon or Jay were to try to get away they would strangle each other. Susan was instructed to stab Sharon to death. She held the knife up and just held it there like shaken. But she couldn't stab her at first. She couldn't bring the knife down. So Tex tried to guide her to do it, but she couldn't do it. Now, that's what she claims. That's her words.

tiffany: 15:54

Frikowski was a large man and he was able to break the ties along with Abigail, and the two sprinted towards the front door and made it onto the lawn and, in a panic, susan was tasked at babysitting Sharon, nj Sebring, while tax like took off. After the couple, linda was outside, who was the driver, and she was asked to be like the lookout. So she witnessed the whole thing. Sharon kept pleading, with Susan Atkins trying to like humanize herself while tax was out on the front lawn chasing down the other two. And she did this so that maybe her unborn child would have a chance at life. All she cared about was her baby. She made that clear through her pleads for mercy. Susan rebutted Sharon's pleas by saying look, bitch, I don't care about you, I don't care about your baby, you're going to die and I don't feel a thing about it. And that's exactly what she said, word for fucking word. That is cold. Yeah, that's some cold bitch shit right there. Mm-hmm. Frikowski ran right past Linda and he looked into her eyes. She thought to herself that this happened because of me and she started blaming herself.

tiffany: 17:06

Frikowski was chased down by tax and he stabbed Frikowski 51 times and shot him twice. Linda said that he stabbed Frikowski to the ground and kept stabbing him. Patricia chased down Abigail and stabbed her 28 times. After she ran past Linda covered in blood, she was screaming for her mother and at one point she screams you can stop stabbing me, I'm dead already. Holy fuck, I know, isn't that fucked up? That is intense, yeah, like it was like a shit show.

tiffany: 17:40

In there, jay kept yelling about Sharon being eight and a half months pregnant and tied up. And if you remember from earlier, in the last episode Jay was still in love with Sharon. That was like his best friend and that was like the love of his life. He was more concerned about Sharon than he was himself and Tex was tired of hearing him and he shot him once in front of Sharon. Then he stabbed him seven times. They threw a bloody towel on his face and left him where he lay.

tiffany: 18:07

Sharon was the last to die. That night she begged and pleaded for her baby's life. She was more concerned about her child than she was about herself, which is what I said earlier and she was wailing and crying until Susan took her knife and stabbed her 17 times and Susan wrote pig on the front door in Sharon's tates blood. Later on, in an interview about the night that this happened, susan Atkins claimed. Susan Atkins claimed that she didn't stab anyone and that she thanked God for not being able to bring down the knife. And when asked who killed all of the people in the house that night, she claimed that Tex did it. I don't believe her account because she did admit right into the beginning that she was the one who stabbed Sharon Tate and it wasn't until years later that she changed her story. But anyone who says I was thinking of cutting her baby out of her womb definitely did the fucking stabbing.

wendy: 19:04

Right, and all these quotes which were said. Who accounted for those? I mean, she sounded like she said some remorseless shit to this woman. Whose account was that?

tiffany: 19:14

The other family members and people that she had admitted stuff to in prison. Also, she bragged about it and then she tried to well, I'll get into that. You'll find out more about why. I have all these quotes because she was working with the police at one point.

wendy: 19:31

Right, I was gonna. I mean, what I'm basically trying to say is that she said some really remorseless shit, and I mean it just sounds to me like she's a cold hearted bitch. Who did this? Oh yeah.

tiffany: 19:44

I believe that Susan Atkins was probably the coldest one out of all of them, aside from Tex Watson, because he's obviously like a psychopath. After Linda witnessed the two murders on the lawn, she walked down the hill to the car and waited for everyone to come out. She was completely traumatized. Tex and the girls came running out of the house down the hill, jumped into the car covered from head to toe in blood. Tex was screaming and was angry while he was handing Linda the knives and guns and he kept telling her to wipe the prints off the weapons and get rid of them. They drove up Benedict Canyon and turned onto Portola Drive, made a U-turn and then stopped in front of a man's house. This was a very narrow street, just like Ciela Drive was, so they did go noticed. They pulled up to the house to use the hose to wash off the blood from their bodies. The homeowner came outside and asked them what the fuck they were doing out there, and they claim they just wanted some water and apologized for disturbing him. They drove for a bit and Linda threw the weapons out of the car window and in another spot they threw the clothes out of the window. Tex throws the gun up over the car and out the window and the gun ends up in Stephen Wise's backyard. Then they drove back down to the ranch.

tiffany: 21:05

Linda claims that she wasn't aware that they were gonna kill anyone that night, that Charlie kept her in the dark, but the Tex was fully aware of what they were gonna do. Susan Atkins claimed that they were given very specific instructions to kill everyone in the house. Also that they were instructed to hit every single house on Ciela Drive, that they were supposed to kill the entire street at Charlie's instruction, but because of how messy it was, they ended up leaving and going back to the ranch. A very interesting fact about the clothing that was thrown out of the car window was that the police never found it. The press and the citizens of the area were disturbed about how the LAPD was handling the case, so the press went out and took root from Ciela Drive away from the scene using roads that they thought that the perpetrators would take, and eventually the press found the bloody clothing, which they turned over to the police and basically made a fool out of the fucking LAPD for not being able to adequately do their job.

wendy: 22:09

I mean, they have this thing pretty well planned out, except for the fact that they didn't murder the entire street. Oh yeah, do you know what the death toll would have been if they had?

tiffany: 22:18

I don't even know. It would have been a lot because there's a lot of houses on that street. It's very narrow and long.

tiffany: 22:24

And they're all concentrated, I think, on one side of the street, but it's tiny like it's tiny, skinny, tiny, like an alleyway almost, and like I was looking at maps of it, and there's quite a few houses on the street. I mean, I think you would need more than three people to kill the entire street, especially if there was like, say, there's four people in the Ciela Drive house. So imagine how many people are in each house there. They're all like rich people, so they probably have people coming in and out all the time, so you'll know who you're gonna run into.

wendy: 22:52

Right, yeah, the surf staff and such, but it's suffice it to say it was headcount, not just it being too messy for them to do it.

tiffany: 23:01

Yeah, but no, that's what I mean is like it was messy. They had to chase them down. I didn't mean like actually, like literally messy, I meant like, just like the fact that two of the victims got away, they had to chase them down. On the front lawn there was a surprise guest that was there that they weren't expecting, right, and they didn't know how many people. I think they only thought four people were in the house and they weren't accounting for. Stephen Parent.

wendy: 23:26

Which was the reckoning. They're like oh shit, that might be the case at these next houses. Fuck that, I'm out.

tiffany: 23:33

That's what I was thinking. I mean, I may be wrong, but that's just how I took it.

wendy: 23:36

Yeah, no, if we were in their shoes, that would be precisely what we'd be thinking. Of course, we wouldn't be in their shoes.

tiffany: 23:42

No, I would never be in their shoes. But Manson wasn't done, however. He had a hit list of a bunch of big name celebrities that he thought represented everything that was wrong with the world. Frank Sinatra was one of the names on the list. He wanted the family to keep killing, and they weren't going to stop anytime soon. Two nights later, on August 10th 1969, manson took Tex, susan, patricia, linda, steven Gordon and Leslie Van Hooten with him to look for people to murder at random. Before they left, manson pulled aside Patricia Crenwenkel, linda Kassabian and Leslie Van Hooten and told the girls to bring a change of clothes with them on their trip. Linda knew that something bad was going to happen that night, but no one asked questions.

wendy: 24:31

You know, I have wonder if one of the reasons he wanted them to kill at random was to lead them off of his tracks. Lead them you know the people investigating off of their tracks, I should say, because that was an intended kill. And if they were to kill people at random, then they'd be like, well, maybe that was a random situation too, I'm not sure. But if I were crazy and I'd killed somebody and I didn't want people to know that what my incentive was, I'd kill people without incentive to throw people off.

tiffany: 25:03

Well, he did do precisely that, because they were a pig on the front door and blood. And if you remember correctly, they did the same thing, gary Hinman's thing, where they put the Black Panther paw print on the wall and blood. So they're trying to make it look like they were the Black Panthers that were just going around killing everybody Exactly.

wendy: 25:21

it does seem like he tries to do that, like to tear, you know.

tiffany: 25:24

Yeah, yeah, that's what he's doing Now. Charlie went with the family on this ride and he went this time because he said the last murders were too messy and I'm going to show you how to kill. On August 9th, rosemary and Lino Labianca drove up to Lake Isabella to pick up their boat for their children, frank and Susan. Frank was supposed to come back with the Labiancas but he begged to stay behind because he was just having so much fun with his friends. The couple and Susan drove the boat home. On August 10th Mr and Mrs Labianca dropped off Susan at her apartment. The couple stopped at a newsstand to pick up the paper. Around 1 am they spoke to the man at the newsstand about the share and tape murders. Mrs Labianca looked frightened about the murders and the couple looked tired. The newsstand worker was the last person to see the Labiancas alive.

tiffany: 26:19

August 10th Frank was dropped off at the Labianca's home at approximately 8.30 pm. He notices that the car was still in the driveway with the boat still attached To him. That was strange. Frank gets his luggage and he brought it up the long driveway to the home. He puts it in the garage and then goes to the back door. The shades are all drawn but the kitchen light was on. So Frank knocked and screamed out for his parents, but no one answered. Frank left and walked to a charburger stand where the payphone was and he called his sister's work. Susan's boss called her at home and then had Susan call the payphone. Frank had told her that something just wasn't right. Susan told him to stay right there and she went to go pick up Frank from the payphone and then drive back to the Labianca's home.

tiffany: 27:07

No one knows if the door was locked or unlocked when they tried to open it, because they didn't try the handle before opening the door with the keys. But Susan's boyfriend told her to stay in the kitchen while the two boys looked around the house. They stumble upon Lino on his back. A throw pillow was over his head, a cord around his neck and something was protruding from his stomach. They ran out of the house and went across the street to a duplex. The couple in the duplex wouldn't let them in to call the police, so they ran next door to the neighbor's house, who let them into their duplex to call.

tiffany: 27:42

When the investigators arrived on the scene, they seen the same scene described by Susan's boyfriend, joe, but noticed that the thing protruding from Lino's stomach was a fork. His stomach had the word war carved into it and his hands were tied behind his back with a leather thong. He had a lamp cord wrapped around his neck and near the dresser was Mrs Labianca and she was lying in a pool of blood with a pink nightgown on. It was pulled up over her back and her bottom half was exposed. There were a shocking amount of stab wounds all over her body. She was not tied up, but she did have a cord tied around her neck. Officers think that she tried to crawl to get away because the cord had tightened around her neck, as if she was trying to move like across the floor. On the wall was death to pigs, written in blood. Above the door was rise. On the refrigerator was written Helter Skelter, all in blood. Helter was misspelled, which no one really knows if it was intentional or not, but it was spelled helter, like H-E-A-L-T-E-R instead of H-E-L-T-E-R.

tiffany: 28:50

The night before they were found, manson creeped up the front lawn of Lino and Rosemary Labianca's home and looked into the window. He saw Lino reading a newspaper. He then came back to the car and summoned Tex to go with him. They entered through the side door. They surprised Rosemary in her bedroom, grabbed her and tied her up. Manson surprised Lino and then tied him up in the living room with a leather thong. He put a gun in Lino's face and told him that he was there for money and nothing else, so that he wouldn't like freak out and he thought he would live. Charlie took Rosemary's wallet to make them think that they were just going to rob them and then leave. He then summoned Leslie Van Hooten, patricia Crenwenkel to go into the home with Tex, and then Charlie just drove off, leaving the three with instructions to kill the couple. The girls take Rosemary to the bedroom while Tex stays with Lino. Tex stabs Lino 12 times with a bayonet. Lino says to Tex enough, I'm dead already. Eerily very similar to what Abigail said just two nights before.

wendy: 29:54

Seriously, that's what I was just thinking. I'm like, holy shit, a glitch in the system.

tiffany: 29:58

Yeah, it's like they're just like I'm going to die anyway. Just leave me alone, you know, wow, it's really weird, yeah. So Rosemary hears the commotion going on in the next room and says what are you doing to my husband? And she starts fighting the two women. She swung a lamp at them, she grabbed whatever she could to stay alive. And then Tex comes in and Rosemary is stabbed a total of 41 times, 16 times by Leslie Van Hooten, and she was stabbed in her backside and lower back by Leslie. She says Tex turned her around, handed her a knife and said do something. So she stabbed Rosemary post mortem, which means that she was already deceased. The family goes into the living room and stabs Lino in the stomach with a fork seven times and carve war into his stomach. They take a steak knife and stab it into his neck, leaving the fork protruding from his abdomen.

tiffany: 30:51

Linda Cassabian was instructed to keep Rosemary's wallet and take the money out and leave everything else untouched. His plan was to wipe the prince and throw it in a predominantly black neighborhood to try to incite the race war, but instead he ended up driving it to a gas station and told her to throw it in the woman's bathroom. She went inside and she hid it inside of the toilet tank because she was afraid of what might happen if somebody found it. Charlie goes across the street to Denny's and grabs milkshakes for everyone in the car, because you know what's a night of murder without some frosty milkshakes. You're sick. I mean, like what the fuck? Like they're killing all these people. And then they're like he's like I got a hanker and throw a milkshake, I got a craving. Let me go to Denny's and grab some milkshakes, as we're hiding the fucking murder wallet in the bathroom across the street at the gas station. You know what I mean. Like okay.

wendy: 31:43

I do, well I'm.

tiffany: 31:45

he worked up a sweet tooth, I guess I don't know. But he didn't even do nothing, so I don't know why he's so hungry. That's a lot of mental power, leslie Van Hooten claimed later. The more she stabbed, the more fun she had After the murders. They all then jumped into the shower in the lobby on his home, so they're like showering in their bathroom. Then they raided the lobby on his fridge for something to eat, had a snack and then hitchhiked back to spawn ranch Like nothing happened. Tex mentioned that he threw the bayonet into water, but nobody ever recovered it. I did find that down the street from the home was a reservoir, so it could have been where he threw it because he was on foot, but nobody knows.

tiffany: 32:26

Meanwhile, manson asked Linda about an actor named Saladian Nodwar that she met on Venice Beach the day before they were driving around during the La Bianca murders Him. You know Linda, and I think it was Clem, oh and Sadie. He told Linda that he wanted her to kill him Now. So Charlie left Linda, sadie and Clem at this man's apartment to kill this man that Linda met the day before or whatever. So Charlie told Linda to knock on the door and then, when the man answered that she was just to slit his throat. Right there in the doorway. Linda was so nervous. So she she knew where Saladian lived, right, but she intentionally knocked on the wrong door. A man answered and she said sorry, I must have the wrong address. And then Linda turned to Clem and said it's not him. And then Clem was frustrated but he suggested they just go back if they can't find him, but that he didn't want, like Charlie, to be mad at him for killing the wrong person or whatever. And at that moment Linda knew it was possible that Charlie would kill her and her daughter. She said I figured if he was going to kill me he was going to kill me, but I wasn't going to kill anyone. And she decided to leave because she didn't want to kill innocent people for what she thought was no reason. So the three of them headed back to spawn wrench.

tiffany: 33:45

Charlie confronted Linda and told her she had to go see Bobby Boussileal and jail to check on him because he's in prison right now, as we talked about earlier, for the Gary Hinman murder. He, he wasn't, I think, he was like being arraigned or whatever, but he hadn't gone, he hadn't been charged with it yet, like not formally in a court of law. She used this as her opportunity to escape. So she packed a bag for her daughter and she tried to hide her anxiety and fear from the other members of the family because she knew what was going on and she wasn't having it. She or no other member of the group was allowed to leave that property unless Charlie said that they had to run an errand. So he, they all had to stay together all the time.

tiffany: 34:25

So she was trying to find her out. So when she went to pretend that she was going to go see Bobby, she tried to go find her daughter and the family moved her daughter so that Linda couldn't take her just in case, like she wanted to. That way they had collateral in case she didn't come back that they still had her daughter and they didn't think she would leave her daughter. She couldn't get down to the falls together and instead she went to go see Charlie. Linda told Charlie that she was leaving to visit with Bobby. She was terrified that he would figure it out, but he didn't think that she was going to go anywhere without her daughter. So she took the car and drove off the ranch and went into hiding in New Mexico.

wendy: 35:01

No shit how old was her daughter again?

tiffany: 35:04

She was small. She was not real small. I don't know how old exactly, because she was a minor and they didn't they didn't list like her age or not. Still, that was a bold move. Yeah Well, she said she figured in the interview I watched. She figured that the girls would take care of the daughter because they were also loving in shit with the kids, right, and she knew that like she could always come back and get her.

wendy: 35:25

Right, because all the dirty work was left to the adults pretty much.

tiffany: 35:29

Yeah. So Donald Shorty Shea was born on September 18th 1933 in Medford, massachusetts, at the Lawrence Memorial Hospital. Eventually he made his way to California, like so many others in the 1960s he had aspirations to become a movie star and found a few acting gigs here and there, but he was mainly a stuntman. Donald was also a ranch hand at Spawn Ranch where he worked as a horse wrangler. Shorty Shea didn't get his name because he was a small man. He was six foot two and stocky.

tiffany: 36:02

When Manson came to the ranch he and Shorty Shea did not get along. Manson hated Shea because Shea was the foreman of the ranch hands. Manson hated authority, but he also hated Shea because he had been in a relationship with a black woman who stayed on the ranch for a while. Shea ended up marrying Magdalene in Las Vegas and it ate up Charlie's little Aryan nation heart. Things had gotten even worse between the two when Shea started complaining about the family staying on the ranch. He thought that the Manson family was no good and that they should just move out and move on because Mr Spawn was getting his dick sucked regularly. He looked the other way and on August 16th 1969, laso raided the ranch and found stolen vehicles on the property. A hundred officers arrived at the ass crack at dawn and surprised the family. Manson suspected that Shea helped set up the raid and believed that he was trying to run the family off the ranch.

tiffany: 37:01

On August 26th 1969, manson, clem, bruce, davis and possibly Tex murdered Donald Shea, but he wasn't discovered until eight years after his death. Bruce claimed that Shea was dismembered before being buried and that they did it because he was a snitch and when his body was found it was completely intact. Bruce and Clem claimed the text stabbed Shea and played a major part in his murder, but his body wasn't found until eight years later. Two days after the murders the family went to Grandma's place in Death Valley, california. They took the bus and arrived around Halloween. They drove as far as they could down the long road towards the ranch but reached an impassable point in the road. They walked 7.5 miles by the waterfalls of Myers Ranch to the mountains. They couldn't get permission from Myers grandmother to stay on the farm, so they relocated to Barker's Ranch, which was a quarter of a mile away.

tiffany: 38:05

Living at the Barker's Ranch wasn't ideal. There was no power, you needed a generator to run electricity and there was a concrete shower, sink and cabinet and then there's a small toilet. Ballarat Bob stumbled across to hippie takeover but couldn't do anything about it because it was so remote that no one would help get rid of him. His bedroom was in the main house and there was a bunch of mattresses to accommodate all Manson's family members.

tiffany: 38:32

In the fall of 1968, manson found a place called the Hole in which he thought he and the family could escape to during the race war. It was a cavern that was of old Native American Hopi legend called Emergence from the Third World. The legend went that the tribal people would make homes in the underground world and emerged from the earth to dwell on the earth's surface. Manson thought that the Hole would be the perfect place to bring the legend to life. For three days Manson meditated at the mouth of the Hole. The thought was, if he drained the Hole it would be habitable, and even consulted a pumping company to see how much it would cost to drain this Hole. $33,000 is what he was quoted, which was a lot in the 60s.

wendy: 39:19

That sounds awesome though.

tiffany: 39:21

Yeah, well, that would be like close to a million dollars in our time now.

wendy: 39:25

Well, I mean it'd be a fortune, no doubt. But the idea of draining that I've always and then I get claustrophobic, so don't get me wrong when I say this like subways kind of freak me out. Be getting stuck in an elevator gives me nerves and everything like that. But I absolutely love natural caves. I think that they are one of mother nature's hidden gems. Like I used to go to purgatory chasm in Massachusetts as a kid and weave in and out of caves. So I can't stand the son of a bitch, don't get me wrong, but the prospect of draining a cave to live in sounds fucking divine.

tiffany: 40:02

Oh yeah, I know, like I love caverns too and I think it's cool, but he definitely didn't have 33 grand, so I don't think that was ever going to happen for Marilyn Manson. Wow.

wendy: 40:13

I've been doing that in my head a little too For Charles Manson.

tiffany: 40:18

It was at the edge of the Hole that Manson tripped all mushrooms and had a final death experience, where he claimed to have walked 45 miles in the desert, collapsed and just about the time that he thought he was going to die he started laughing uncontrollably and then he claimed to have gotten up with ease and walked another 10 miles to safety. The time he spent out in the desert, he developed a fondness for the coyote and used it as a metaphor in his discussions. Just like the coyote, he grew a fascination with the Devil. Cult Manson equated them to swastikas adoring Adolf Hitler and claimed that they hated blacks. I'm sorry.

wendy: 40:58

I have to. Moses speaks to a bush and Manson speaks to a hole. And Adolf Hitler?

tiffany: 41:07

One of the Devil Cult members was charged with carving swastikas into their victim's flesh. So Manson wasn't wrong. Years later, investigators found the body of Shorty Shea with various ceremonial animal bones buried alongside of it. The family left Barker's ranch and moved into a mansion in LA temporarily. Bob Barry and Paul Crockett moved on to Barker Ranch to mine for gold. Squeaky Fromm was able to convince Mr Spawn to let the family back onto Spawn Ranch and Crockett was allegedly involved in a Scientology cult. Back on Barker Ranch, paul Watkins was spying on Crockett for a few weeks before he asked Crockett for help to leave Charles Manson's family. Crockett let him stay and Paul broke the news to Charlie that he was leaving. He was able to sneak away without incident and was very glad that he had, because he was very aware of Charlie's murderous plans.

tiffany: 42:04

On October 13th 1969, susan Atkins was arrested in connection with the Hinman murder. After she was interrogated and admitted guilt. Susan also mentioned her connection to Shorty Shay, which had investigators abuzz him because he was still missing. Katie Lutz Singer, another member of the family, admitted to an arson in Michigan, various dune buggy thefts, stolen credit cards and the Hinman murder, and she was held for a few days and released to the care of her parents.

tiffany: 42:36

Sergeant Whitley and Gunther were investigating the Gary Hinman murders. They flew to Wisconsin to interview Mary Brunner. She told them that a gun had been fired in the house during the struggle, and detectives went back to the scene of the crime and retrieved the bullet that was fired inside of the bathroom and expelled into the dirt and bankment on the outside of the house. While Susan Atkins was being held on suspicion of murder, she bragged about the other murders to a cellmate, which led to the ultimate demise of the Manson family. Plus the straight Satan's are added on the Manson family. To save themselves, being that they had no real loyalty to the family, the state issued warrants for Tex, patricia, leslie Van Hooten, linda Kassabian and Charles Manson.

wendy: 43:23

Now Linda's all the way in Texas right now, right? No, I think she went to.

tiffany: 43:27

New Hampshire. Okay, the ranch was raided and they found Manson hiding under the bathroom sink in a very, very fucking tiny cabinet that I really don't think that he could have fit in. I read that it was like 10 by 12. I can't imagine him folding his little ass into such a small space. I think that there was a misprint there, because I really don't believe the cabinet was that small.

tiffany: 43:52

Trying to picture this like alleged mastermind who's been manipulating all of these people and pumping fear into them, hiding in a little cabinet though, I know I mean that's how he was found and the reason they found him is because they spotted his hair hanging out of the cabinet door.

wendy: 44:11

Yes, that's great.

tiffany: 44:13

That's great, yeah. So on October 15th the police compiled pictures of everyone who lived on the ranch and collected fingerprints of each of the family members. Tex and Patricia were picked up in Texas and Alabama on a bolo for the pair.

wendy: 44:27

Fuck, that's who went to Texas. Yeah, yeah, tex, all right, go on, all right.

tiffany: 44:32

Because he was from Tex. Linda Kasabian turned herself in on December 2nd and she was living in Concord, new Hampshire. 14 of the family members had been arrested and questioned and 10 were let go, with charges dropped. And at Barker Ranch police recovered numerous dune buggies that were stolen, a cache vehicle with guns and weapons covered in brush, and four of the members were charged with theft, but the charges were dropped in lieu of the murders. Other members of the family were charged with different offenses, but the murder charges were reserved for Susan Atkins, tex Watson, patricia Crenwinkle and Leslie Van Hooten. The knives thrown from the car were never recovered and we know that we had the bloody clothing and that that was found, but there was a single knife left at the crime scene of the tape murders that belonged to Susan Atkins. And we're going to stop it here because the next episode, part four of the Manson family, we're going to talk about the trial, which was a fucking circus, a crazy fucking circus, probably the craziest trial I've ever read about in my whole life.

wendy: 45:41

Yeah, there's a lot of key members to this and a lot of snitches. I wonder if the Satanists and such are going to be there. I'm all excited. Well, you'll find out. Oh, that was intense Tiff, from beginning until end, and I know I said this during the first episode, but I lightly, very lightly, traversed Manson Charles Manson, that is, as a result of Marilyn Manson when I learned about his name and from where it derived and all of that, and so this is the most thorough account so far. Tiffany, you are the crime expert. You know I was supposed to do a whole different genre before we started this, so I really am learning quite a bit, and so I'm very glad that you were as thorough as you are and covered as well as you did.

wendy: 46:29

Oh thank you. Thank you, darling. Thank you, I'm learning so much. Thank you, sweetie, I'm becoming an expert, thanks to you.

tiffany: 46:38

Yeah, so this is like the cherry picking from the different religions and using those different ideals in order to craft his own like thing and how he was so like, involved in these different satanic cults, these sex cults you know right from prison and all this stuff.

wendy: 46:55

I mean there's a really eclectic range of creative beings and occultists and so many different personalities involved in. All of them involved for different reasons and all of them seemingly addicted to different aspects of it too, which is not all of them, but most of them.

wendy: 47:16

So I mean I find you know, because these are being introduced to me and of course maybe even some of our listeners, for the first time, so I'm a little all over the place with all the names and places and from where which they derive, and I do a lot of studying on a whole different you know plethora of different topics and shit like that. But this I just the fact that you can narrow it down to the degree in which you have is impressive.

tiffany: 47:44

Well, yeah, it was hard. It was hard because there's I read two different things about the Manson family, and it said that there was anywhere between 60 and 100 members, right, wow, yeah, so that's how many people were on Spawn Ranch, and they fluctuated because there's people that came and went, so that's why I think it was between 60 and 100.

wendy: 48:06

Right, we're talking during the 60s too. There were a lot of drifters and hitchhikers and you know, free lovin' and I there. There's a huge side of me that wishes I could time travel back to that time for just a little while to see how accurate some of the things that my stepfather has told me about the 60s, because he was a traveling. He got back from Vietnam and he traveled the country with a bunch of hippies. And while you're discussing this, I cannot help but think about him and all these wild 60s and 70s stories that he told me. And affiliating these two things because even when you were mentioning how they were knocking on the doors and people weren't letting them in to call the police reminds me of how far in the past that was, when there was no cell phones. And we're time traveling, and we're time traveling to boomers generation, which someday is going to happen to us millennials. They're going to be like traveling back to when we had landlines. Well, hey, I mean we had landlines?

tiffany: 49:12

We sure did, but we had both. Yeah, it didn't change much between the 60s and the 80s. If you'd like to check us out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube or TikTok, then you can find us under Rogue and Wicked podcast. If you'd like to join our Patreon and become a subscriber, then you can find us at wwwpatreoncom. Slash rogue and wicked. Our tier one listeners get pictures, polls and exclusive content. Our tier two listeners get all that plus a bonus episode monthly. Our tier three subscribers Our tier three listeners get two bonus episodes monthly and all tiers get a shout out on the pod. Grab a copy of Wendy's book Sage. It's available at roguepoetnet. Any cool stories, questions or case suggestions should be sent to our email at rogueandwicked at yahoocom. And don't forget to give us a five star review on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The more reviews that we get, the more pod episodes that we can bring to you you dig. Thanks for listening and until next time.