Untold Stories of History: the Deeds of Irma Grese

Who really pulled the trigger on Tupac Shakur? Today, we plunge into the murky world of Tupac's homicide and the recent revelations about his killer. We also gear up for the upcoming trial that promises to shed more light on this 25-year old mystery.  But our journey does not stop there.

We flip the pages back to one of the darkest periods in human history—World War II, specifically the heinous atrocities committed by the Nazis. Our spotlight lands on Irma Grasso, notoriously known as the “beautiful beast,” whose chilling deeds still haunt memories. We excavate her life, from her upbringing and the societal influences that morphed her into a monster, to the concentration camps where she brutalized innocent lives. Her shocking crimes, the theories surrounding her behavior, and her subsequent execution, are all subjected to a rigorous discussion in our episode.

Finally, we wade into the delicate matter of preserving historical statues, particularly those of controversial figures. A case in point is Hitler's statues. Are they a crucial reminder of past atrocities, or do they glorify the villain? It's a hot debate, and we dissect it from all angles. As we wrap up, we ponder on the invaluable lessons history offers and the essential role of remembering the past in charting our future. Join us on this stirring journey from Tupac's murder trial to Irma Grasso's horrifying deeds. Brace yourself, it's going to be a riveting ride.

Transcript

tiffany: 0:13

Welcome to Rogue and Wicked. So a bombshell just dropped on September 30th, I believe it was it was last Friday which we're gonna be out a few weeks, so it's gonna be a little bit behind our news report here. But you remember the case of Tupac Shakur, right? Yes, well, they just figured out who the dude was, the shot caller, the one that, like, ordered the hit on Tupac. They figured it out. It wasn't Diddy, no, it was Dwayne Keith Davis, aka Keefy Dee. So right now they said that he's gonna appear in court in the next few days for a hearing to determine his custody status and to set a jury trial date. So he's been arrested as the in connection to Tupac's murder, 25 years after his murder, which was in 1997, by the way. So, and when it happened, he was leaving a boxing match at MGM Grand Hotel on the Las Vegas Strip and he died six days later, like he was shot there and then died in the hospital.

wendy: 1:18

Wow, yeah, Teenagers when that happened and I remember how that affected the community. There is this West Coast versus East Coast thing going on at the time which resembled a lot of shit that was going on in the neighborhoods that I grew up in the Great Brook Valley versus Maine South and it was just like this big, huge thing. So that kicked in some crazy nostalgia. So there's going to be a trial and everything.

tiffany: 1:41

Oh yeah, they have a trial and everything going to get set up soon. As soon as he goes in for his hearing, there will be a trial date set.

wendy: 1:49

No shit, we're definitely going to have to cover that once those details start spilling out.

tiffany: 1:54

Oh yes, because I've been waiting my whole life to find out who it was that killed Tupac, that's wild. I don't know if this Dwayne Keith Davis, if he pulled the trigger allegedly or what, but if he didn't, he knows who did. It's still new, it's still new.

wendy: 2:11

That's going to be wild, because that a whole bunch of people who are still alive, who maintain celebrity status from that point on to now, are going to start spilling.

tiffany: 2:20

Oh yeah, like right now, the details is that one of the theories was Dwayne Davis, so he was one of the theories on the case, and Joe Hannison told the police that they believe that Davis obtained the gun that was used from a close associate, like a friend, but declined to give any more detail, saying that it would come out during the trial. I'm like waiting. I am waiting for this trial. I don't know if they're going to broadcast it or not, and if they don't, I'm going to at least try to follow it online and see if I can't get some more details that way, just for my own personal interest.

wendy: 2:55

In the case I was a little bit interested in the OJ Simpson case, although you and I were very young when that happened, and this one I'll be interested into. Normally, celebrity cases Annoy the living fuck out of me, but not when it comes to murder cases, divorce cases. Oh yeah, I really wish they wouldn't. I didn't want to see that side of Johnny Depp and I don't want to see anything pertaining to Kim Kardashian. No, no, it was like um, you can keep that business to yourself. Thank, you.

tiffany: 3:25

Yeah, I'm good with that, but, um, I do want to find out who shot Biggie too, so I hope that happens. I hope somebody comes out with that shit too, because I feel like these two murders were connected.

wendy: 3:36

I was just going to say that I feel like some of that might come out while this is transpiring, and that would be wild.

tiffany: 3:42

Well, I think all these things are going to lead into one another, and I really hope they do, because we've been all sitting around waiting for this shit to happen for the last 25 years. So close your baby, yeah, baby. So what are we talking about today?

wendy: 3:57

Another crazy one, of course. Since I enjoyed charging the Vatican for their monstrous war crimes and for being their racist bigots they are, I thought I'd hone into one of the most infamously known periods. In fact, rome precipitated such broken fundamentals that we've come to learn regarding the Nazi.

tiffany: 4:15

Oh, I thought you were going to say the Roman church.

wendy: 4:17

when you said Rome, the third right, Meaning the third realm or third empire referred to. The Nazi claim that Nazi Germany was the successor of early Roman empire.

tiffany: 4:29

They ain't lying though, because remember they got the Swiss guards.

wendy: 4:32

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Remember how, when we did the Vatican, I was like, wow, that's a lot of news, wow, that's a lot of Nazi overtones.

tiffany: 4:40

Oh, yeah, man, they're like the whitest of the white over there. They're little Caucasus mountain people that they have working for them.

wendy: 4:47

I mean the third empire literally referred to the Nazi claim that Nazi Germany was a successor. So that was no shit. We were on point.

tiffany: 4:55

Hey, don't surprise me. Nothing surprises me when it comes to the Catholic church.

wendy: 5:01

If it's wild, it really is. Today, we'll be discussing Irma Grasso, otherwise known as the beautiful beast, who was a young Nazi, and she was a sadist who was one of the most sadistic creatures involved in the heinous Nazi war crimes. Now you have to be one fucked up individual to be on the top of that list. Oh yeah, I would say so. As many know, nazi Germany was dark times Between 1933 and 1945, when Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party controlled the country, transforming into a totalitarian dictatorship. Over 6 million innocent Jews were slaughtered. It's important to remember and learn from this dark chapter to prevent such atrocities from happening again. The Holocaust, which was a systematic genocide carried out by the Nazis during World War II, is a significant part of history that is well documented and studied and profoundly important to consider in 2023, where there are some strict right-wing connotations bleeding through the democracy that is supposed to protect us from such things.

tiffany: 6:04

Yeah, in America right now there's a lot of them coming out of the woodwork. That's exactly right.

wendy: 6:09

That's why I said in 2023. We're starting to see some of these things like the book burnings and such, going on in Florida.

tiffany: 6:17

Yeah, and overturning Roe vs Wade. I don't want to speak on our opinions on these things, but I would like to say that these are all connected.

wendy: 6:24

Yes, they are. And when I was writing this because it's been a long time I know I did a second round of World War II when my kids were in high school. But doing it on this level and digging as deep as I have in the past week about these things while all this crazy shit is going on with our government has been a journey I feel so paranoid because of it I know it actually makes me sad I don't even watch the news anymore, Like aside from true crime, because it just blows my mind.

tiffany: 6:52

Even though the biggest true crime problems that we have are part of our government. Well it's no joke what I'll let that one lie. You know I won't.

wendy: 7:05

So Adolf Hitler had several vital figures central to his leadership during World War II and the Nazi regime. Some of his most prominent associates included Himmler, the head of the SS, one of the most influential organizations in Nazi Germany, responsible for many atrocities. Joseph Goebbels I'm not even sure if I'm pronouncing it right. In fact, I know I'm not because I've heard documentaries on him.

tiffany: 7:28

Well, fuck him, he's a Nazi.

wendy: 7:30

Yeah, I don't have to pronounce him, right, anyway. Fuck your name, Nazi fuck, I do a lot more reading about these things anyway. But the Nazi minister of propaganda and he played a significant role in shaping Nazi ideologies and spreading propaganda, so he was definitely a dangerous figure because they really conditioned a lot of young ass people. Imagine manipulating masses of people into killing that many innocents.

tiffany: 7:56

I know, especially a dude who didn't even look like the people that he wanted to rule the world with. Seriously Wild.

wendy: 8:05

And then there's Herman Goering, who was a high ranking Nazi official who served as Hitler's designated successor and commander of the German Air Force. Rudolf Hess, an early member of the Nazi party and Hitler's deputy until he flew to Scotland in 1941 and failed at an attempt to negotiate peace with the British, which I'm glad, because the British took them down. Martin Borumann, one of Hitler's private secretaries and was the Nazi foreign minister that played a role in diplomatic relations with other countries. So I mentioned these individuals because they were part of Hitler's inner circle and played a huge role in implementing Nazi policies and carrying out the regimen. So let's get into specifically her. Shall we Sure Listen to this ready?

wendy: 8:50

Irma was born on October 7th 1923 and wretched Germany. Not only is she a Libra like you, but she has my better half's exact birthday, and this month was 100 years ago, precisely when she was born. Holy shit, I know how prophetic, right? Yes, during her time as a female concentration camp guard during the Holocaust at Aschowich in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, she was known as many as a beautiful beast, but before that she was timid and a fearful, bullied child. Uh oh, that's how it all starts, oh yeah, while some information is available about her early life and family. It's important to note that her actions during the Holocaust have overshadowed her background as such. Irma's involvement in the Holocaust and her subsequent trial and execution have been extensively documented, but relatively limited information about her family or early life compared to her actions during the war was available. Also, she was really young, which I'll get into too but as you and I both know, when somebody doesn't live past 25, they don't really have much of a history to talk about?

tiffany: 9:58

No, not really, but she like I'm looking at a picture of her right now and she looks like she's got a face on her like she's she's taking a shit, like she always. She has a face on her like she has perpetually taken a shit.

wendy: 10:11

Well, there are some pictures of her where she looks kind of hot, and then there are pictures like that one, and I do agree with you because she's described as a beautiful beast, which is why you looked her up, right?

tiffany: 10:22

Well, I was looking up everybody that you were saying but weirdly enough she looks like. She looks like the main character from a handmaid's tale.

wendy: 10:29

Holy shit, Doesn't she? I haven't. I have not seen the show, but I have seen the advertisements and you're not wrong she has a very similar oh, she looks like identical to her.

tiffany: 10:40

It's wild.

wendy: 10:41

They look very similar.

tiffany: 10:42

Yeah, that could be like her great, great, great great-grandmom or some shit, I don't know.

wendy: 10:48

Wow, that image will never go away now. Yeah, All right. So Irma grew up in a rural environment and a farming family.

wendy: 10:56

Her parents, bertha and Alfred, were dairy workers. Irma was a third of five children, with two sisters and two brothers. Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party came into power in January of 1933. German kids were often persuaded to join Nazi Party youth groups at groom's children and juveniles into Nazi ideology. Such youth groups prepared Germanese young people for war. One of the online sources suggested that Irma's father joined the Nazi regime, but the documentary that I listened to said that he was adamantly opposed to it and that he beat his children for falling for the propaganda.

tiffany: 11:32

Yeah, well, a lot of people fell for that propaganda. If you listen to a lot of it, it does sound promising, like in the beginning.

wendy: 11:39

Well, it's weird how sometimes you'll get completely different sources, Like one of the sources I said I read online said that he ended up joining the Nazi forces. But this one, which seems actually pretty believable because they structured it around more of her life was that he did not like Nazi sympathizers and he never allowed them to join Nazi organizations, even when his children wanted to and I know it sounds crazy Like why would he want? I mean, why would any child want to do that? But, as we mentioned earlier, the propaganda that they spread was profoundly methodical and incredibly manipulative.

tiffany: 12:16

Oh, of course it was. Well, that's why they were able to spread it so greatly and widely was because it was so manipulative and it was easily hidden in what the public's interest was. Yes, they were like oh, these immigrants coming over here started off like that. We want to get rid of them.

wendy: 12:32

You know we're going to do that for you.

tiffany: 12:34

And then so people are like oh yeah, like yeah, and then they slowly started putting shit in there.

wendy: 12:39

They even had pictures of Hitler like he was some kind of celebrity or some kind of hero in their schools. Yeah, these are like young and impressionable children and they're going to class and they're trusting their teachers and they're trusting the facilities because their parents are bringing them there, right, yeah, so why wouldn't?

tiffany: 12:57

Hitler be a hero? Yeah, well, that's what he was to those children. They didn't know any better.

wendy: 13:02

Well, I do hope they were telling the truth about her father and him not being a Nazi sympathizer, because I think that's pretty bad at us, like they're going to school and coming home and saying Hitler's great and he's like, no, they're sick.

tiffany: 13:14

Yeah, well, you see, that's the thing about history Sometimes there's little details get lost in the shuffle. Like her dad, like you know, we don't know, we probably never know, but hopefully you're right, hopefully that he wasn't because we got to have some kind of hero in the story.

wendy: 13:29

Yes, well, we do the British troops, but you're right. So in 1936, very sadly, irma's mother committed suicide by drinking hydronic acid after hearing that her husband had an affair.

tiffany: 13:42

That's a real fucked up way to kill yourself. I thought the same thing. Oh my God.

wendy: 13:47

So Irma was only 13 years old when that happened. She was then left to be raised by a strict Christian and physically abusive father. Irma's school life was about as glorious as her home life too. She struggled with keeping up with the academic curriculum and was often bullied by her peers. Her sister stated that when Irma was in primary school, if girls were quarreling and fighting, Irma never had the courage to fight, but ran away instead.

wendy: 14:11

It's also documented that Irma left school at age 14. At 14, she spent six months on a farm working an agricultural job. Then she moved to work in retail for six months. By 15, she worked as an assistant nurse for about two years, untrained, under the sanatorium's medical superintendent, Carl Givet, a Nazi doctor who was known later as someone who performed medical experiments on concentration camp inmates during the Second World War. While Irma had ambitions to become a nurse, she was academically inept and in 1941, at the age of 17, she was sent to a dairy farm where she operated bottle machines. However, everything changed in the summer of 1942 when Grace became a guard at Ravensburg concentration camp. Remember that she was only a teenager when she was accepted into job placement. The duties required were of such benign nature that applicants did not even require any special training. Ravensburg opened in May 1939 and was the only prominent woman camp established by the Nazis at that time. 132,000 women from Europe passed through the camp, including Russians, Jews, Polish and Gypsies. Of them, over 92,000 were killed.

tiffany: 15:26

It's wild, that's insane. I always hated when we talked about Nazi Germany in school.

wendy: 15:31

Yeah, the numbers are just, they're mind-blowing.

tiffany: 15:35

They are.

wendy: 15:36

Really and truly the worst killers that we contend with in general as a whole are these leaders who commit war crimes. No serial killer or anyone, or not even some of the ones that we've discussed that killed almost 1,000 people, like we did a few episodes ago, can even come close to what these people have achieved by manipulating the masses.

tiffany: 16:00

Yeah, I mean, it's like mass genocide, it's just unbelievable. So Auschwitz, which we'll get into later oh man, that place is a torture chamber but yeah, go ahead, I already know about Auschwitz, that shit's fucked Dude. She eventually ends up there, that's what we're gonna bring it up yeah.

wendy: 16:18

Bergen, belsen and Auschwitz were two infamous concentration camps during the Nazi era and played different roles in the Holocaust. Auschwitz, located in Nazi-occupied Poland, was one of the largest and deadliest concentration camps. It consisted of three main camps Auschwitz I, auschwitz II and Bergen, now primarily an extermination camp. As a third one, over a million people, primarily Jews, but also Roman people, polish and Soviet Union prisoners of the war, were killed there through various means too. They'd had gas chambers, mass shootings, forced labor and harsh living conditions. Dr Joseph Mengele, known as the Angel of Death, conducted gruesome medical experiments on the inmates there, and Auschwitz became a symbol of the Holocaust and systematic genocide carried out by the Nazis, a lot being a result of his sickness.

tiffany: 17:15

Oh yeah, he was like putting people together, making like human Frankensteins.

wendy: 17:20

It's wild because these two camps what she got away with and these people got away with are like as disturbing as any serial killers we've ever worked with. And it was legal because the government permitted it.

tiffany: 17:32

Well, yeah, well, that's what they say is like war is legal murder.

wendy: 17:35

It is. They throw somebody out there soldier with guns and profess that they're doing something heroic, even though it's usually a financial agenda and segregation tactics that are agreed upon by the 1%. You don't normally think of them condoning actual torture as long as it's for your country, it's not.

tiffany: 17:55

you're not a serial killer.

wendy: 17:56

We have Guantanamo Bay here and people just act like it doesn't exist. But this stuff pisses me off so bad.

tiffany: 18:04

I know.

wendy: 18:04

But Bergen Belsen, located in Germany, initially served as a prisoner of war camp but later became a concentration camp. Unlike Oslowich, it was not an extermination camp with gas chambers. Instead, many inmates died from starvation, disease and poor living condition. In fact, anne Frank and her sister Margaret were among the prisoners who died there. Shortly before its liberation, wow, the camp gained notoriety for its horrendous conditions and high death toll, including the deaths of many Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners. Oslowich and Bergen Belsen are grim reminders of the horrors of the Holocaust, where millions of innocent people suffered and died due to Nazi persecution. These camps are well documented through survivor testimonies, photographs and historical records. I traversed some of those things as if I needed the reminder, but what I did it for was the intention to feel, as I do now while I'm discussing these things, profoundly hurt by the human race. During that time.

tiffany: 19:07

Oh yeah, I mean I watched a lot of those documentaries, Like there's tons of them out there. I even saw one about how Hitler supposedly escaped to South America because they never found his body.

wendy: 19:18

Like do you mean Brazil? Yes, south America, yes, yeah, I heard about that one too. I didn't watch it, but I had friends to discuss it with me.

tiffany: 19:26

I watched it. It was badass, the documentary, but yeah, I mean I kind of believed it a little bit. I was like, well, like you could have, you know.

wendy: 19:35

I felt that way about Osama Ben Laden and a few of these other people because they helped propagate some financial agendas on both ends. Yeah, but whatever, I just think that sometimes the hierarchy uses a mascot. There's a mascot that we have to chase after and a mascot that they used to perpetuate anti and patriotism, and I say anti and patriotism because it does both. There are the anti-patriots who don't serve their country because they don't believe the bullshit, and then there are the righteous patriots who believe that if they serve their country and they serve this leader, put the mascot here, you've got Hitler in this case.

tiffany: 20:15

Yeah, it's like the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

wendy: 20:19

Amen. So Ravensbrook campus, where Irma began her Nazi reign, was staffed by SS men who served as guards and administrators, and 150 women who served as supervisors. Ravensbrook was also a training camp for female guards, trained by sadistically cruel supervisors who instructed trainees to handle the prisoners in dark and cruel ways, including working them to death. Many were even subjected to unethical medical experiments. They even used hammers to break the limbs of female prisoners, purposely infecting open wounds with aggressive bacteria and monitoring them by using an array of chemical substances. The primary coordinator behind said experiments was Carl Gebbett. Irma's job was to squeeze the maximum amount of work from her subjects with as few resources as possible, until they took their last breath. Also, irma was well acquainted with Carl and, by 18, was said to have served as his assistant nurse and thereby partook in some of the suspicious experiments.

tiffany: 21:22

Yeah, because she couldn't just be the warden, she's got to also partake in and gruesome, gruesome human experiment. Fucking sick bitch.

wendy: 21:30

There are some suspicions that some of her sadist tendencies derive from the experiments of which she and Carl mutually partook. When she returned home in 1943 for a family visit and told her father that she was supervising at the camp, her father allegedly harassed her and exiled her from her family home For real, but I was thinking too at that point in my studies. I was amazed that I've read nothing of her retaliating against her father, especially with her then found connections.

tiffany: 22:00

Yeah, but that's her dad. You know what I mean. All little girls want to like love their dads. They want to like yeah you're right, she still is a little girl at this point, yeah, and she probably wants to as a pervo and it probably just like hurt her. So she went back to where she was accepted, which was Nazi death camp.

wendy: 22:16

Well, she was very young and impressionable. At this age, I'll admit an 18 year old working with a Nazi doctor. At the same time, though, my 18 year old self would be grossed out by that shit.

tiffany: 22:28

Yeah, I mean, anybody in their right mind would be grossed out by that shit. Or at least feeling like some sort of like sadness or Remorse.

wendy: 22:37

Yeah, as I said earlier, I did read that he joined the Nazis, but I hope these stories about him beating her ass and banning her from the family are true.

tiffany: 22:47

Me too, because she deserved more than an ass beating.

wendy: 22:49

Wait, but you know what they say.

tiffany: 22:51

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

wendy: 22:53

Well, listen to what happens a year later? Okay, by 1943,.

wendy: 22:58

following her failed attempt at a family rendezvous, irma quickly rose through the ranks of the concentration camp system and in March 1943, she was transferred to Osiewicz. There, irma was a female SS guard known for her brutality. Grace saw the Jews as subhuman and treated them with disdain. While other prisoners were forced to wad, she carried a whip, which she used to inflict savage beatings that killed weakened prisoners. She had a pistol and would arbitrarily murder prisoners at will. She would often beat and kick inmates for the slightest or even no reason.

tiffany: 23:33

I wonder if she got like some kind of sexual pleasure out of this, because it seems like she does.

wendy: 23:37

Mm-hmm, she sure did Really Okay.

tiffany: 23:41

Oh yes, I was taking a crack at that one, but it's not just how it came off to me, so that's why, oh yeah.

wendy: 23:46

She was sounding like a dom right there.

tiffany: 23:48

Right yeah.

wendy: 23:48

Yeah, she participated in the selection process as well, where she helped determine which prisoners would be sent to forced laborers and which ones would be sent to the gas chambers for extermination. As a female guard, she supervised female prisoners and ensured they'd follow camp rules. She often used her position to terrorize and mistreat the women under her watch. She also worked as a dog handler, using trained attack dogs to intimidate and control prisoners. She would often set the dogs on inmates for no reason. Witnesses where she was later tried and convicted testified to her sadistic behavior, including shooting prisoners, whipping them and selecting certain ones for punishment at her leisure. She was involved in selecting prisoners for medical experiments as well. She was even responsible for ensuring that prisoners lived in deplorable conditions, including overcrowded and unsanitary barracks with a little access to food, water or medical care. Imagine being in charge of that, making sure that their living conditions suck.

tiffany: 24:53

Yeah, that's fucked up, man. I feel like they're suffering enough just being there, like why make it worse?

wendy: 25:00

I mean I get that.

tiffany: 25:01

You like hate them and that's why that you're doing it Like you wanna commit genocide, but like why can't you just, if you're gonna do it, at least do what you mean, don't do it like that? I mean, and I found out those dogs that they were sickening on and were German Shepherd. They're rough and tough dogs. I thought that they were Doberman pincers, because that's usually what they use over there, but apparently it was German Shepherds.

wendy: 25:24

Well, German Shepherds are such smart dogs.

tiffany: 25:26

They are.

wendy: 25:27

They're used as police dogs and I would love to have a German Shepherd.

tiffany: 25:31

I love them.

wendy: 25:31

they're great dogs, but that makes me sad that they use them as like a weapon, because they're such good dogs All dogs are good dogs, and it breaks my heart that dogs like Pipples and Rottweilers, german Shepherds and Dovermans, because of their strength and agility, that they're used for such sick human shit because outside of the realms of humans, training them improperly and mistreating them. Dogs and cats are, like to me, some of the best friends we could ever ask for. Such.

tiffany: 25:59

Oh yeah, I love my dog and. But you know what? Dogs are an extension of the human consciousness. So if you're a piece of shit, you're gonna raise a piece of shit animal.

wendy: 26:08

I don't know. Even in those cases there's so many sweet dogs that I've seen rescued from pieces of shit. It's crazy, because they'll just take a beating from their owners. There are some that are trained to fight, but usually they give them gunpowder or do sick things to their minds to make them that way Exactly. It's fucking horrible when you know you have to damage their brains to make them as sick as a human.

tiffany: 26:32

Well, I mean, that's well technically, anybody who's that sick as a human is brain damaged. So I guess they're just trying to extend that consciousness again. You're so right.

wendy: 26:41

With all of that, to solidify what you mentioned earlier, she was also an infamaniac sadist who'd sleep with fellow officers and often raped female prisoners.

tiffany: 26:51

I knew it. I knew that she got off on that shit, because who the fuck carries a whip around and starts like beating people with it and not getting off on it? That's just disgusting, like raping female prisoners.

wendy: 27:03

I read in Werafate History Network that there was a woman named Dr Giselle Pearl. She lived from 1907 until 1988, and she was a Hungarian Jewish gynecologist. She was deported to Osiewicz concentration camp in 1944, where she helped hundreds of women, serving as an inmate gynecologist, working without the bare necessities, and Holocaust survivor who immigrated to New York and became the first woman to publicize a Holocaust experienced in English. She said that Irma was one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. Her body was perfect in every line, her face clear and angelic, and her blue eyes the gayest, the most innocent eyes one can imagine. And yet Irma Gracie was the most depraved, cruel, imaginative pervert I ever came across.

tiffany: 27:54

Well, she must have been blind, because I looked at pictures of her and she does not look like an angel face.

wendy: 28:01

I knew you were gonna say that, just as much as I knew you were gonna look her up.

tiffany: 28:06

She has that shit face that I gotta take a shit face.

wendy: 28:10

Making fun of killers is one of my favorite things to do with you. Yeah, irma committed innumerable acts of sadism and roamed the woman's camp looking for female victims to abuse. Being able to strike people fulfilled her, especially since she was a bully child, and more because they couldn't hit her back. The beautiful beast makes sense, especially as it relates to her being what they call physically beautiful, yet disturbing as far as a sexual divinity. Imagine not only having affairs with the infamous doctors, as well as the other members of the staff, all allegedly catching and spreading diseases among peers and prisoners alike, but the fact she'd use prisoners to fulfill sexual desires too. She sometimes selected beautiful women for the gas chamber after physically abusing and raping them. Out of jealousy and spite, irma occasionally favored certain women, usually those who resembled her sister.

tiffany: 29:05

Still, only so that's fucking weird man. That is weird.

wendy: 29:10

She would still though she would only use these women as lookout girls while having orgies in the barracks. So she would basically find beautiful women and become sexually frustrated by their beauty and hate them at the same time, and then, once she was done sexually abusing them because she had the ability to choose where they went, as we discussed earlier she would put them in the gas chamber. So there'd be nothing to speak about.

tiffany: 29:35

Yeah, she's a hate fucker. That's what she was a hate fucker, which I think is disgusting. You're gonna be jealous of somebody and then rape them and then kill them because you're jealous of them, like that's just. That's real sick. I don't even know I can't even explain it into words like how sick this woman is.

wendy: 29:51

And she's so young. Yeah, she's so young and she's experimented on people. She's sought dogs after them. She has done every single type of vile thing I can't even think of something she's missed.

tiffany: 30:06

She's devoid of empathy, that's for damn sure.

wendy: 30:09

She gets off on it the way that a man and many of these cases that we've done does.

tiffany: 30:15

I know and that's weird for like a woman to get off on that kind of sex and violence, because usually women, I don't think do.

wendy: 30:23

Right. Well, they're definitely the minority in this type of business that you and I do, yeah. But what's sick about it too is that she's a woman, she's young and I surmised, after doing all of this, have I even known of a killer that has committed as many types of crimes as she has? She is multifaceted rape, execution, torture, experiment. She has covered almost, if not all, of the ways you can fuck up a human being, yeah.

wendy: 30:53

Finally, luckily, the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, where Irma served as a guard, was liberated by the British 11th Armored Division on April 15th 1945. The British troops, part of the Allied forces advancing through Germany near the end of World War II, discovered the horrific conditions of the worst to Nazi concentration camps, which would epitomise the true horrors of Nazi regimes and its death counts. The liberation of Bergen-Belsen was a grim moment, as the British soldiers were confronted with the immense suffering and death cause by Nazi brutality and neglect. The images and reports from there and other liberated concentration camps played a significant role in revealing the full extent of the Holocaust to the world. The British forces found over 13,000 unburied deceased and roughly 60,000 sick and starving prisoners. Thousands of other inmates died of diseases such as typhus and tuberculosis during the months following the camp's liberation. So even though they showed up, there were so many thousands of people that, because of their shitty living conditions while they were there, didn't survive anyway.

tiffany: 32:02

Well, that's a shame.

wendy: 32:04

The British arrested Irma and the other camp personnel and she, along with other Nazi officials, would later put on trial at the Bergen-Belsen trial for her involvement in the atrocities at the camp. Grasso was convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity and was executed in December of 1945, hamburg, germany, december 1945, Joseph Kramer, the beast of Belsen, his blonde queen Irma, and nine of their Nazi concentration camp aides were in the courtyard of the prison. Three women and eight men found guilty by British military court of committed mass murders and atrocities. These aren't just exclusive to those two that she went to. There were other concentration camps where thousands of Jews, polish people and war refugees died. So they were put to death in executions that lasted from 9.30 am to 4 pm. Can you imagine just a day of killing these?

tiffany: 32:59

fucks. Wow. So like they killed all the war criminals for how many hours?

wendy: 33:05

Oh, I'm going to laugh at this and giving myself that privilege, so I don't care if this is mistaken, because these are fucking Nazi criminals. Okay, ah, from 9 am to 4 pm.

tiffany: 33:18

Wow, 9 am to 4 pm, that's like a whole work day.

wendy: 33:21

Yeah, they're just killing one out, and they hung them too. Well, good, fuck them. I wish I could have been there for that, just that one part, watch those fucking things and hanging them was too humane.

tiffany: 33:30

I think they should have made a concentration camp just for the war criminals the Nazi war criminals and then, gave it back to them, because I am all for an eye for an eye.

wendy: 33:41

These fucks, though. I mean they tortured people until they died. They tortured them so bad, that's what I mean. So hanging them, that's like too quick. Well, Armour Grace was only 22 when that happened, so that pistol-packing beastess of Belson was hung, thereby becoming the youngest woman to die judicially under British law in the 20th century.

tiffany: 34:04

Oh, wow, well, good, good riddance to Irma, bye bitch, bye bitch, see you later. Nasty, nasty. That's a shame. I can't believe. All those people died, man, during that time.

tiffany: 34:16

They have a Holocaust museum that's in Washington DC, I believe it is, and my mom went to it and she said it was like the saddest thing ever, because they had like rows and rows of just like shoes when you first walk in, like the Jewish people's shoes and well, and whoever else was in the camp that was being killed, and they had them all lined up and then they had all kinds of other stuff. She said it's just when you walked in, it was just so heavy from like the weight of history you know what I mean. Like all these people died, like you've seen all these different videos and memorabilia that they had taken from these different places and put in this museum. And she said it was like the saddest thing ever and I've always wanted to go to the museum just to like see it. You know, because I learned all about it and I think it's important for people to know our history in the world. You know, I know it was a long time ago, but it's important for people to know this stuff.

wendy: 35:08

I agree with you. That was one of the main incentives that I had regarding doing this case, because we are, as I stated earlier, experiencing some similarities in the way that the chess game is being played on a government level.

tiffany: 35:23

Yeah.

wendy: 35:23

And I see some continuity between these two things that I do not like, and in order for us to make sure that history doesn't repeat itself, we have to recognize patterns, and this is the most important part of the podcast for me is that you and I get to discuss this. You and I have actually had this discussion where they were tearing down monuments and statues because they didn't find them appropriate. I disagree with that. I know that there are some statues that represent things that I absolutely hate, and we can use Hitler, for example. Hitler doesn't deserve his own statue. I'm not going to even attend to that.

wendy: 36:00

He does, but that's still a part of history and if we're going to do anything, rather than tearing the statue down, use him as an example of what not to do. Even though some of the statues misrepresent, in hindsight, what we know them to actually mean now, I think we could put a plaque in front of each one that says what not to do, how they were misrepresenting, how they were propagating false ideologies and things like that, and how they were manipulating the public, because there's still examples of our history and we need to know what not to do in our future just as much as we need to know what to do. I think we should have 10 positive statues for every one negative statue, because of all the laws of manifestation and metaphysics, because, even if I disagree with the fundamentals and that is a subjective thing, but of course we know philosophically that there are definitely fundamentals that are as close to science as it gets.

tiffany: 36:58

Yeah, but you know, in Germany there's not a single statue of Hitler anywhere.

wendy: 37:03

Right. I think that if they did take them all down after the war, which I think is good.

wendy: 37:08

I mean, I don't, he was a bully and he shouldn't have had statues praising him everywhere. I don't believe that they should have ever been put up in the first place, but, hypothetically, if there was a statue of Hitler that was preserved from that time, it should remain untouched. Maybe put a clown nose on the motherfucker, because that's what he was, and have a plaque that says what he was. He was a tyrant, he was a Stalin. That is an example of what not to do.

wendy: 37:37

I think, that we should never ignore those dark things from our past. You know how you were discussing the shoes at the museum.

tiffany: 37:43

Yeah, but that's of course at the museum. I mean, I don't particularly necessarily agree with you on that, which I do agree with most of I agree with your sentiment. But what I don't agree with is because a lot of people walk by it, and that's how it was described in Germany, like people would walk by these things and they were just reminded of this looming figure that just kind of like destroyed their world and then you have the same thing here with the statues that were I think it was Virginia the ones that got torn down here.

tiffany: 38:13

I think it was one of the Civil War people that was bad. And again, I remember people in the news saying that the reason that they wanted the statue taken down was because it was a reminder of slavery.

wendy: 38:25

I understand what you're saying about, say this as it pertains to Salem, one of my favorite towns on earth, except for on Halloween, when you go to places like the Wax Museums and the Witch Museum and they have realistic looking wax carvings which are essentially wax statues and transcripts and the stories thereof. Those things tell you a horrific story and they remind you of what the fuck happened in Salem during religious oppression during that century. And when you take that in totality, they did not hide anything. They're just like. This is what happened. This one was crushed with a rock. Here's the transcripts, here's exactly what happened, and they put all of that on display. It is accountability. As you walk in, you learn about those things, you see what really happens, you know how fucked up it is. There's statues of every single fucked up character, even the ones tortured. Then you walk out and you see what they learned from it. In fact, you don't even have to leave the building.

tiffany: 39:31

What the cotton mother was a piece of shit.

wendy: 39:34

Fuck you, john Proctor. Yeah, but yes it does. They in detail exemplify what the fuck went wrong. And they don't just have statues, they have realistic wax ones, and not just in one building but in several. And yet when you leave the demonstration, which all of that entails, and you walk out of the building, right, you see an eclectic range of spiritual power and fanilia, as my favorite one is. When you leave the witch museum and there's a wall and I love that they have Socrates on there I don't know why, because I fucking love Socrates so much I'm like, yes, they think he's a witch, I love him, but they have like a whole wall of not even just the things that happen in Salem, but people who are persecuted as witches throughout time and they have pictures of them and their history. And that is the best example of redemption I've ever seen, because when you step outside you see a beautiful statue of a witch sitting on a full moon, like haha, bitch.

tiffany: 40:32

Yeah, but that's what you're talking about in a museum or in a wax museum, which is, I agree with you, should be able to put them into a museum.

wendy: 40:39

In a courthouse. Well, yeah, but I feel like it being outside like for everybody to see.

tiffany: 40:44

all the time it does kind of loom over people. I feel like I'm not saying destroy it, I'm saying move it to a place that it's more appropriate.

wendy: 40:51

Yes, yes no, I wasn't saying like leave them out, you know, at local parks and things like that. I was just saying not to destroy them, to use them as examples of what not to do. Like I said with the Salem thing, when you go outside, you see the beautiful witch sitting on the moon, crescent. On the inside they showed you what went wrong. They put him in a confined area for you to learn from and learn what not to do.

tiffany: 41:16

Oh yeah, my favorite was the trial where you actually go see the trial of Sarah. Good, yes, I did that too yeah. And they have like the dungeon underneath the courthouse.

wendy: 41:26

Yeah.

tiffany: 41:26

And you go down there and it's like these little tiny two by two cells for like the poor people and then, like the rich people, got like a five foot cell and you had to like shit and piss where you stood, yes, and they even charged you money, so you had to pay for your own incarceration, which was really whack, was not a way to still land at all. No.

wendy: 41:46

But you're exactly right, and that's the kind of places I think that those statues should be relocated to. Yeah, they should be used for academic purposes.

tiffany: 41:54

But we can agree on that. And I'm glad we don't agree on everything, because I always see people online talking about their favorite podcasts and how I always agree with each other and they're like that's so annoying, like stop agreeing, you'll agree on everything, and it's like we don't, and it's okay because we're different people. You know what I mean. But we can come to common ground and we can understand where each other's coming from.

wendy: 42:14

Right. Well, I think there was a misunderstanding at the very beginning of this, where you thought I meant leaving the statues where, precisely where they are. I was just saying that we should use them for academic purposes, just like the shoes.

tiffany: 42:25

No, I agree with that.

wendy: 42:26

Yeah, yeah. Oh wait, how about the book of Anne Frank and things like that?

tiffany: 42:30

Oh yeah.

wendy: 42:31

I think, and I'm afraid, that without those things we're doomed to make the same mistakes.

tiffany: 42:37

Yeah, sometimes if you get, if it gets lost in history, then, yeah, history may repeat itself, because we can't learn from something that we don't know the outcome of if we can't remember it.

wendy: 42:46

I wish more people were like you, tiff, and that they were into museums. Oh I love museums. Well, you and I went to our first museum together 20 years ago this year this coming year.

tiffany: 43:00

Well, it was our first together, yeah.

wendy: 43:02

Yes, together it was our first time, and we went to the Philadelphia Museum, the Art Museum. Yeah, that was amazing. Some of the armor in that museum I still think and fantasize about to this day. In fact, there's a painting at that museum that I'm obsessed with and I want to see again.

tiffany: 43:17

They have some good Kaczynski paintings in there too. I love Kaczynski.

wendy: 43:21

I think that you should go to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts with me and that you and I should revisit that museum, because I guarantee there's more in there since then. Oh yeah.

tiffany: 43:30

I'll go, and then you know the one in Philly. They always put new exhibits in there like every so many months, and they did have a really cool one a few years ago where they had Andy Warhol shit in there. They had the soap boxes that somebody actually had bought and used as coffee tables for a while before they ended up getting put into the Art Museum.

wendy: 43:51

What For real? Yeah, but that's just it. That's where I think those statues should go. Our fucking museum that explains why it's there, what was learned, what came from it. Because that's part of our history, it is who we are as human beings. I do not think those things should be destroyed at all. I think we should have more tact in regards to where they're placed.

tiffany: 44:12

Yeah, that's what I'm saying Take them off the street and put them in a museum. So thanks for doing that case, wendy. That was really interesting. I actually am very interested and know a lot about Nazi Germany, which, again, we've already discussed. I love history. I don't love that history because it's really fucking sad. But I'm glad that you covered that, because I didn't know who Irma Grazie was. So this is the first time I'm hearing about her, and I'm glad that you were able to bring this to our listeners, because I think it's great when we do some historical cases so that people actually learn something, and there's a lot of true crime in our history.

wendy: 44:51

The greatest of them. By the greatest, I mean the worst of them.

tiffany: 44:55

Yeah exactly, especially when it comes to genocide. Our Tier 2 listeners get all that plus a bonus episode monthly. Our Tier 3 listeners get two bonus episodes monthly and all tiers get a shout out on the pod. Grab a copy of Wendy's book Sage. It's available at roguepoetnet. Any cool stories, questions or case suggestions should be sent to our email at rogueandwickedatyahoocom. And don't forget to give us a five-star review on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The more reviews that we get, the more pod episodes that we can bring to you. Thanks for listening and until next time.