Rogue and Wicked
True Crime podcast with dark humor, two sexy brunettes, sprinkled with some paranormal stories and some pop culture for your hearing pleasure. We dive deep into true crime cases and give you the details that you don't always see in any one documentary. Follow us at Rogueandwicked on tiktok, instagram, facebook, twitter and youtube for pictures and more content on our cases.
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Rogue and Wicked
The boyfriend did it: Michael Hutto and Joseph Jorgenson
Imagine waking up to the chilling reality that the person most likely to harm you is someone you know, or even a family member. This week, we unravel the horrifying statistic that confirms this terrifying truth. We'll be shedding light on two recent cases, demonstrating how the familiarity of the criminal can often cloud the path to justice.
Sit back as we walk you through the life of Laura Duncan, an 18-year-old who fell in love with a much older man, Michael Hutto, co-founder of Salt Life. As the story unfolds, we explore the red flags that dotted their relationship, a chilling reminder of how respect and loyalty can be masked by love and admiration. Then, brace yourselves as we narrate the tragic tale of Mani Starren, a victim of domestic abuse, and delve into the grisly evidence that leads up to her alleged murderer, Joseph Jorgensen.
We'll also be investigating the complex web surrounding Joseph Jorgensen, Mani Starren's accused killer. From his suspicious purchases to his peculiar behavior, we piece together the clues that paint a harrowing picture. We end with a poignant discussion on societal norms that often perpetuate such cycles of abuse and the courage it takes to break free. Join us for an episode that serves as both a stark warning and a call for change in the way we perceive victims of such heinous acts.
References:
https://nypost.com/2023/07/04/missing-minnesota-moms-body-found-in-storage-unit-boyfriend-arrested/
https://people.com/missing-minnesota-woman-found-dismembered-boyfriend-charged-murder-7556597
https://www.foxnews.com/us/manijeh-mani-starren-body-parts-found-storage-unit-boyfriend-arrested
https://www.the-sun.com/news/8507244/manijeh-starren-dismembered-joseph-jorgenson-charged-fanta-xayavong/
https://www.scribd.com/document/656901996/Joseph-Jorgenson-probable-cause-affidavit
Police: Body of 2nd missing woman found in storage unit - KSTP.com 5 Eyewitness News
https://nypost.com/2023/02/20/salt-lifes-michael-hutto-gets-12-years-for-manslaughter/
https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/i-am-terrified-of-troy-salt-life-co-founder-accused-of-stalking-women-after-killing-teen/
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1101396/000110139613000023/exhibit991saltlifepressrel.htm#:~:text=The%20purchase%20price%20for%20the,Life%20products%20in%20calendar%202019.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/02/21/salt-life-cofounder-admits-killing-teenage-girlfriend-in-florida/11315031002/
https://the-mystique.medium.com/the-shocking-truth-about-the-salt-life-clothing-co-founders-murder-trial-f20d3954cbb5
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Script's, Editing, Social Media and the Creator of the show: Tiffany
Co-host and author of the book series "sage": Wendy
Music by Bo Todd
Welcome to Rogue and Wicked. So I went to the Chippendale show at the Hard Rock the other night and that was wild.
wendy:It was wild to witness you partake in such an endeavor.
tiffany:It was like a burlesque show really. There was no frontal nudity, it was just like butts and bodies is basically what it was. They danced and had little themed outfits on. It was really cute. They had a bunch of dudes with hammers wielding them around.
wendy:So you weren't getting any cock while you were doing that, it was just all ass.
tiffany:It was all ass. Yeah, they did a thing where they pulled it away real quick and the lights would go out so you didn't see it, or a hat would go over the front of it. It's a casino, it's not a dirty basement review.
wendy:Aw shucks, but yeah, I know what you mean.
tiffany:Yeah, it was like a burlesque show with men.
wendy:I was hoping to FaceTime Tiff while she was there, because she sent me some of those videos on Messenger, so I was like that looks like a good time. I'm going to FaceTime. I see what's up, but I got there too late.
tiffany:Yeah, we were already home by then.
wendy:By the time you were around the whole family and I was like in a funky ass wig saying, hey, what wig you want me to send you?
tiffany:Well, sorry, we were all stoned anyway.
wendy:I was like where are you? I was too.
tiffany:We were in high as shit. We ate all these edibles when we came home because we forgot to bring the edibles with us down to the hard rock, which I think it would have been even funnier if we would have done that. But I kept saying you got to get up on stage. You got to because they were like yo, if anybody you know. They wanted to pull people on stage and I'm like no, and she's like really, and I'm like no, I don't want to go up there. I do not want to be in front of a bunch of people. Why a guy like Waves is junk in my face.
wendy:Misty is so awesome. I remember the last time I had an edible, when I was in Jersey visiting you, she, you know, she told me after I took it how strong they were, and you warned me about it too, and did that fucking smartass on Instagram the other day, sent me a link. When your friends give you edibles that are too strong, I'm like fuck you. That was you. That's my mom. Oh shit, I love her. So what do we learn? What?
tiffany:do we learn in? Today we're talking about something that is insanely common, that people don't really talk about, but it's very true. People always worry about stranger danger, and while that's a relatively viable fear, it's not statistically comparable to that fear. 54.3% of murder victims are killed by somebody that they know, 24.8% are killed by a family member and 36.5% were murdered by their husbands or boyfriends. Those statistics are terrifying, because you have a higher chance of being murdered by someone that you know than someone you don't, and with that I'm going to touch on two recent cases, one that's currently in the news and one that's solved.
wendy:Those statistics are actually really scary, and you know, one of the things that I think about, too, is how, when somebody goes after somebody, they know they become a suspect. It seems like the people that do end up getting away with murder are the ones who do it at random, because it's harder for them to pinpoint who and why Exactly. And now I understand, too, that they don't just have that in their corner when these things happen, but they also have these statistics too.
tiffany:Yeah, they definitely do, and that's why serial killers get away with murdering so easily, because they usually kill a random person and most of the time it's somebody that you know or somebody that you've come in contact with. So when it's a random that picks you up, it's way harder for them to pinpoint who it was.
wendy:That's true too, and another reason is also that they probably have more incentive. Animosity in things like that typically brew in circumstances that are more intimate. Yes, like motive, usually yes exactly, exactly, uh huh, so, but that's scary. Those statistics are still fucking horrifying.
tiffany:They are horrifying because it's the people that are around you the most is the ones you got to watch out for. Yeah, I thought it would be interesting to bring that in here Now. I'm sure you've seen the Salt Life logo on the back of vehicles in every state across America. I know you're why you're laughing, because you didn't see it. I asked her this before we started the podcast.
tiffany:I knew she was going to pull the shit out of me, and I was like yeah, wendy, I was like this we're talking about, you know, michael Hudo today, and she's like what?
wendy:What's Salt Life? Okay, I know I'm bad. All right, go on, teach us all to.
tiffany:Yeah Well, I know she's going to see it on every vehicle now, like every, like third vehicle, she's going to see a sticker, just because she didn't never seen it before or never paid attention. I used to see it and thought that the font was cool, because I'm an old graphic designer, so I thought the font was awesome and just assumed it meant beach life. Little did I know it was an entire movement. Salt Life was a brand founded in 2003 by four watermen from Florida, basically to appeal to beach enthusiasts and people who love water sports. By 2006, the brand had evolved into an entire lifestyle collection that offered apparel for everything water sports. Salt Life had an entire cult following that had erupted all across the United States. Salt Life even evolved into opening food shacks in three locations in Florida Jacksonville, st Augustine and Fernandina Beach and there's even a full bar inside the restaurants and they claim to have a trendy ambiance. I've never been to them, even though I lived in Florida. I never had seen a Salt Life restaurant in my life.
wendy:So we're almost even I've even been in all of those cities in Florida, particularly Jacksonville.
tiffany:Yeah, but I've never seen a Salt Life restaurant Ditto. I couldn't find the names of the four founders of Salt Life and I researched the fuck out of this place. Their names appear nowhere. I assume it has to do with the story we're about to embark on, because I know if I was linked to this in any way, I would try to distance myself from what's about to unfold. So we're going to start with Laura Duncan. Laura Duncan was born April 8th 2002, in Millageville, Georgia, to Burton Sissy. Duncan Laura was one of three children. She had a brother named Corbett and a sister named Rebecca. Laura had lived in Saundersville and Thomasville, Georgia, before moving to Lake City, Florida. She graduated in 2020 from Columbia High School and was enrolled at Florida Gateway College. Laura was a member of the Gateway Church and loved to hunt and fish. Laura loved spending time with her family and friends and was a beautiful blonde bombshell mixed with the girl next door.
tiffany:Michael Huto was born on July 7th 1966 and he was a well known investor and developer. He attended an elite college and was well educated. At some point he even advanced his education at another elite school. I couldn't find the names of the institutions, but it was nearby his hometown in Florida. Michael Huto was the co-founder of Salt Life and was raising horses and cattle at a farm outside of Lake City, Florida. His net worth was between one to two million dollars. He was married with four children when he met 18 year old Laura. The two met while she was working at a gym that Michael frequented. Michael was in an ATV accident and was attending the gym for physical therapy. The two hit it off and the rest was history. The two had a huge age difference. We're talking an 18 year old Laura with a 54 year old Michael. Some people claim that Michael really loved Laura, but others didn't look at their relationship the same way.
wendy:You know what, and I know that this is going to sound completely contradicting to one of the very first conversations you and I had 20 years ago. But I think that this has less to do with love than it has to do with a very unhealthy type of lust that comes in the form of wanting somebody naive enough to believe that he's better than he is, because, with that much of an age difference and being so young and naive that she is, she's beautiful. It sounds like, too, that blonde bombshell girl next door thing. I'm sure that there was a level of being enamored by her. But to love on a deep, profound level there needs to be some type of intellectual connection, one that transcends intelligence but comes in the form of experience and something that's relatable. So I think that they're devoid too many of those things. Because of those age differences, she might believe and actually be in love. I believe that's possible because she's too young to know any better or the depth of what love entails. But he, I don't think he did.
tiffany:No, not at 54 years old.
wendy:No if you loved her, you wouldn't fuck with her at all. That's what real love's about.
tiffany:Yeah, because she like in, like comparison to him. She's like a child. She's not even out of teenagehood yet.
wendy:Right, love has nothing to do with sex. So many fucking people think so, but it really has nothing to do with it. If he truly loved her, he would be protective of her, and that would include protecting her from himself.
tiffany:Exactly Now, others didn't look at their relationship the same way, especially Laura's parents. They weren't too sure about this Michael character being in their daughter's life, which I don't fucking blame them because their like daughter was dating somebody their age. I would assume it and I assume that it's exactly why I think it is is because he was old enough to be her father, for one.
wendy:Yes, they think the same way that we do.
tiffany:Yeah and two. He was married with four kids, and what was he doing with the teenage girl?
wendy:You know what I mean Exactly. It shows his lack of loyalty, shows his lack of respect.
tiffany:Yeah, he is a scumbag. Laura's parents worst fears were about to come true when Laura texted them that she was traveling with Michael to meet a few business associates of Michaels in hopes of starting a new business with Laura. See, at this point, michael had already sold the Salt Life Company in 2013 and was looking to invest in something new. Michael and Laura had been dating for several months at this point, and it was said that their relationship was turbulent. The two were constantly fighting and bickering. They had broken up several times and gotten back together. It's like an ongoing thing breaking up, getting back together, breaking up, getting back together. The two also had been rumored to have cheated on each other a time or two, which he was already fucking cheating at anyway, so whatever.
wendy:So, yeah, she's so young, anyway, that there's going to be a whole bunch of beautiful men around her and she's going to start looking at them and looking at this old man, in contrast.
tiffany:Oh yeah, yeah, nobody wants that old wrinkled ass.
wendy:Nobody wants that old dick. Women don't even hit their prime. They're sexual prime until they're 40s. Men are already out of their sexual prime at that point, so it never makes any sense to me why they go younger. Well, I mean, of course, in the grooming and wanting to take advantage of somebody that doesn't see through their bullshit.
tiffany:I can see it, for that, yeah, but it's about to stop working soon, you know.
wendy:Oh yeah, oh yeah. I believe that she got some of that young dick's change in her mind, right yeah.
tiffany:They had broken up several times and gotten back together and, according to Laura's parents, laura was supposed to drive two-daytona to meet the business associates. Okay, the next day, laura's parents reported her missing While deputies were there. Laura called and sounded really strange on the phone. Her parents thought she was drugged and being manipulated, so they asked the deputies to do a welfare check on Laura. The sheriff's office sent out a bowl of and she later called her parents and told them that they were headed for the Florida Keys. The police tracked Laura's phone and found that she was at a motel and not in the keys where she said she was going to be. A couple of employees at the Ocean Front Hilton Singer Island Hotel it's a mouthful told police that on October 29th 2020, that Michael had reserved a room but he missed his checkout time. When the three officers knocked on the hotel room door, two of the officers hid so they didn't spook Michael off, but unfortunately, no one answered the door. They could smell something coming from underneath the door that was foul. When management let officers into the room, they were shocked at what they found. Laura Duncan was lying on the floor with a pool of dried blood around her body, and it had been apparent that she was shot to death. In the room they found marijuana and the police thought that maybe they were using drugs and alcohol together. The police also found Michael's wallet and ID. They thought that maybe Michael had accidentally fired a shot that killed Laura and decided to flee in a panic.
tiffany:Michael drove four hours north and was spotted in Jacksonville at a gas station. He was delusional, crying and twitching. The gas station employee said that his eyes kept rolling into the back of his head, which was really bizarre. The police were able to track him down to the gas station where he was sitting in an illegally parked car. He was arrested and taken to the hospital because it was obvious that he was mentally unstable. At the time of the arrest, michael claimed that he had nothing to do with the murder and that he had been out of the hotel at the time of the shooting. But once the police found his gun and it matched the same caliper weapon that was used in the shooting, his whole demeanor changed.
tiffany:Michael then admitted to shooting Laura during a heated argument and said that he was just playing around. When the gun, quote-unquote, went off, he claimed that Laura was sitting on the bathroom counter in her bathing suit after a day at the beach, that she had the gun pointed at him kidding around and that he had one pointed back at her. When he pointed it at her, it accidentally went off. Now here's the problem with Michael's statements. The trajectory of the shot entered at a downward angle into her stomach, suggesting that someone was standing over her when she was shot, and even though it wasn't execution style, it definitely seems deliberate. Michael also said that they were headed to the keys but stopped to rest, which is odd because the hotel staff said he made a reservation ahead of time, so it wasn't a spur of the moment. Stop, like Michael claimed.
tiffany:Michael made a $250,000 bond and was released until his trial. The state later filed a motion to revoke Hudo's bond after two women accused him of stalking and a judge granted them injunctions for protection against him. According to the report, michael was a member at a gym where Duncan and the two women worked. The women claimed that he had been following them around the stores and gas stations and staring and glaring.
tiffany:I am terrified of Michael. One wrote in the injunction petition obtained by First Coast he is mentally unstable, he is a heavy drug user, he has a big collection of guns. He keeps them in his house, car and backpack. I am afraid of what will happen if I don't get any protection from Michael. Michael even grabbed the woman's phone away and said if she talks to Gracie again, he will kill her. Gracie was the name that he gave Laura and when referring to her in some of the testimony and stuff it's like a little confusing because she has this nickname, gracie, that Michael calls her, but her actual name is Laura. Now when he said this to her, it was the same day that he killed Laura.
wendy:Sounds like he was a little mentally unhinged in general.
tiffany:Yeah, he was but the fact that he was like stalking women, taking things away from him, yelling at them about talking to his girlfriend on the same day that he killed his girlfriend. Like it's just, you can tell something was about to happen.
wendy:Do you know where his wife?
tiffany:was during this time. No idea, there's not a whole lot on this case, believe it or not. I mean, I dug, I dug and dug and dug and I found the most I could find.
wendy:It sounds like he's trying to start a harem of children.
tiffany:Yeah, I don't know what he's doing, but now obviously that gives you a better picture into his mind, listening to what these girls are saying and that they took out protection orders against him. It was really obvious that he was mentally unstable even after the murder, which makes me think that he must have been a little wonky this whole time. But it went unreported. Prior to the murder, the defense claimed that it was an accident. Stuck by that defense, the entire trial. Michael's attorney said that it was stupid, tragic and heartbreaking and it was an accident that basically ruined two families. Michael pleaded guilty to manslaughter and because of his guilty plea it never went to trial. So Michael was sentenced by the judge to 12 years, which I don't think is enough. No, something doesn't seem right about this whole thing. But what do I know? I'm just some bitch. Plus, there's only two people in that room and one's deceased, so I guess we'll never know.
wendy:Well, her life was taken too young, taken advantage of by this man, and he's just an adulterous creepy ass piece of shit, yeah, but I'm glad that at least he's serving 12 years.
tiffany:but you know that's tough because he might still get out early.
wendy:Again, 12 years is not long enough of what he did.
tiffany:No, it's not. And even if it was an accident, I don't see how you can accidentally shoot somebody. I really don't. You got the pool of triggers, so I don't believe he accidentally shot her at all.
wendy:I don't either, but you know, again, this is just speculation and you can't Right, I was just gonna use that word my s-.
tiffany:Mm-hmm, we can't really say much, but you know what it is, what it is in the court of law. That's what he was found of. I still think it's fishy and something ain't right, but not anything you can do about it now.
wendy:Well, when somebody is fundamentally bankrupt to that level, I don't put anything past them in general, no, me either.
tiffany:I mean, they're capable of anything.
wendy:so that's right exactly.
tiffany:Salt Life has released some statements on social media saying that they aren't officially affiliated with Michael Hudo and that he had sold his share to them in 2013. They were straight up like, um, we don't know this dude anymore and I don't blame him, because that company is worth a ton of money and I always liked Salt Life and I'm glad that Michael Hudo sold the company, because I kind of want to get a Salt Life sticker because I love the beach and I'm glad that, like, he left the company in 2013 and he wasn't able to sully the name.
wendy:Conceptually it seems like a great idea and that he shouldn't be part of any great ideas.
tiffany:No, no, unfortunately, it was one of his great ideas. So so there's another case that I found, and it was. It was very interesting. It's not a celebrity case like the Michael Hudo one, which I don't even think he's really a celebrity, he's just known for his company. But but this is about the other side of society, the one that a lot of time gets forgotten and lost.
tiffany:On May 1st 2023, manny Starrenne was quiet, more quiet than usual. Her parents were trying to get a hold of their daughter, but they couldn't reach her. See, no one had heard from Manny for days. This was starting to worry Manny's father to death, so on May 1st, he decided to file a missing persons report with the local police. Her father told investigators that they were worried because Manny told them that she was afraid of her then boyfriend, joseph Jorgensen. Manny seemed scared and slightly paranoid when her parents last spoke with her, which sounded alarm bells in their heads.
tiffany:It was no secret that Manny was being abused by Joseph. The neighbors saw her coming and going from the home with black eyes and marks on her throat. Her son's father was alerted by Manny that Joseph tried to strangle her with a rope and that he was physically abusive. Everyone was worried about Manny, but she was also a grown woman who made her own decisions and a lot of people didn't want to meddle in her relationship. In early April, joseph had sent her threatening and abusive text messages. One of them said Hope you die of a kidney infection. Bitch, cunt, terrible, fucking mother. He wrote. Her neighbors tried to help by offering to call the police, but Manny would say it will only make things worse, which is a common phrase used by abuse victims.
tiffany:The fear of punishment that will be inflicted on them is so great that they would rather take the abuse than stop it. Most of the time, the abuser will get a light sentence and no contact order, and they are usually out within a week from the time of the assault. If it isn't their first offense, they may go to county jail for a longer period of time, but not long enough to give the victim reprieve. When they get out of jail, they usually return to the victim Out of fear that the victim will leave the abuser. The most dangerous point in the abusive relationship is when the victim leaves. In fact, women who leave their batterers are at a 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. So the phrase It'll only make things worse holds a lot more weight than just being a silly dismissive excuse.
wendy:Yeah, that's actually true. That's a lot of the reason why women go back to their abusive husbands too, because there's not a lot of repercussion for some of their actions.
tiffany:It's true, and it really does make things worse. I mean, you hear so many stories of women being killed by their abusers.
wendy:Right, and a lot of those abusers are control freaks too and one of the ways that men especially based on the patriarchy and the last couple of millennia have controlled the finances. Even while women now maintain financial independence and they're starting to embrace that, they're still a whole bunch of men out there who know how to financially control women.
tiffany:Oh yeah.
wendy:And that's really sad, it's like. And of course there's Stockholm syndrome and a whole plethora of things that keep victims attached.
tiffany:Yeah, and also abusers. Narcissistic abusers and people who suffer from narcissistic abuse actually suffer real brain damage from the trauma, and that brain damage helps keep them more docile and in the relationship. So when they say that abusers, they basically have such bad PTSD that they don't leave. Yes, I know that one. Yeah, manny Starren was a 34-year-old mother of three. She was proud to be a mother, and, according to her best friend, it was the most important thing in the world.
tiffany:Manny was from St Paul, minnesota. St Paul isn't one of those cozy small towns in the Midwest. Actually, on the contrary, st Paul has one of the highest crime rates in America. The chances of being a victim of a violent crime are one per every 20 residents. In comparison, though, to Minneapolis, st Paul is the safer option, but you still should lock your doors. St Paul is mainly known for having an extremely high rate of heroin and methamphetamine use, so it's safe to say that there's a lot of petty theft going on there also.
tiffany:Manny was known as a patient and kind woman who was humble and sweet. She lived on East East Wow, I had another one of those Mike Tyson moments. She lived on East 7th Street near the Johnson Parkway. Manny was no stranger to the drug epidemic and was struggling with substance abuse, which left her vulnerable and in need of help. The day she went missing, she was supposed to check into a drug rehabilitation facility for drugs and alcohol, but never made it.
tiffany:Manny's child's father was concerned as to where she could have gone. Normally he was used to the two of them co-parenting, keeping in contact and passing the phone off to their child. He told investigators that she didn't go more than eight hours without talking to her son, that they communicated daily about the children and that he was worried for her safety. When her ex called the apartment, joseph told him and anyone else who called that Manny was out at the store. After the missing person's report was filed, police went out to Manny's apartment complex to see if they could find anything on the security footage. Which they found on the tapes was fucking terrifying. On April 21, 2023, around 6pm, police see Manny bursting through the doors of her apartment, attempting to flee from someone or something. Joseph comes bursting out after her and grabs a hold of her and then he shoves her back into the apartment building and that's it. That's all police see. It goes dead silent and she's never seen coming out of that apartment again.
wendy:Actually, what I was thinking is this is fucking deja vu. I don't know how it happened, but all of it, there must be a glitch in the system. Maybe.
tiffany:The only person who came out of that building was Joseph. In fact, joseph was spotted entering Manny's apartment with her keys 28 times between April 21 and April 28. He was also seen in the video hauling two heavy duffel bags and a suitcase from the apartment into a pickup truck. What really struck investigators is odd is that Joseph never reports his girlfriend missing. He tells everyone that she's just at the store and then goes on with his life as if nothing ever happened.
wendy:You know, if you and I don't speak for 24 hours, I'm like Tiff, you alright, you okay over there. And if your partner goes to the store and they're running about an hour late, you're going to be concerned about them.
tiffany:Oh yeah, especially your boyfriend or girlfriend. I mean, it's different, like even though we're friends, like we check in on each other, but like your boyfriend or significant other, they're usually texting you all day.
wendy:Not to mention that they departed there Like, oh, he went to the store and never came back. No big deal. Yeah, that doesn't happen. If anyone in my household leaves, goes to the store and does not come back, I'm going to call the cops, I'm going to go search for them, I'm going to blow up their phone.
tiffany:Yeah, it just seemed like a lazy excuse to me.
wendy:It seems a little too nonchalant for me.
tiffany:Yeah, but it's not even like. It's not even like nonchalant like to me, because it's like everybody knows that you're full of shit.
wendy:Right, that's what I mean. You'd be more concerned than that. If somebody left the store and didn't come back, you would be wondering what the fuck happened. Where they are, are they okay? Exactly, where are my chips? I'm just kidding.
tiffany:Now, on May 25th, police secure a search warrant for Manny's apartment. Inside they find a cracked TV, a large amount of blood stains on the floor, on the sofa and in the kitchen. So it looked like someone attempted to clean up the blood, but was unsuccessful in doing so. The microwave glass had been broken out, but there were no shards on the floor, which shows that whoever had broken the microwave had swept up the glass. A large hole was cut out of the mattress foam topper that was on the bed. The sheets had been pulled back and some of the items had been removed from Manny's closet. Did you say that a piece of the bed was cut out? Yeah, the mattress foam topper. You know those like thin things. You buy that you put on top of the bed to make it softer Right, like those temperpedic things yeah somebody cut a piece of that foam topper out and just like left the foam top.
tiffany:Like, if you're gonna cut a piece of it out and leave with it, why not just take the whole foam top off?
wendy:That's exactly what I was just thinking Like, yeah, that's weird. It's like a stain on the rug and it just happened to be a bloodstain that you didn't want to seem conspicuous. You're not gonna cut a hole in the rug, you're gonna take the rug out.
tiffany:Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just you know, something was there that you you know it's gonna be found.
wendy:Like it's gonna be found eventually, I'm gonna take one piece of the puzzle out, but leave the rest of the puzzle there, so that you know that there's a puzzle there.
tiffany:Police officer is gonna see something like that and not want to find that missing piece.
wendy:Exactly, yeah, fucking fruit loop.
tiffany:The CSI team had taken samples of blood from the apartment and they came back as being positive. For Manny Star N. Police also tracked her credit card to see if any purchases were made. They found that large amounts of cleaning supplies were purchased. There were transactions for cub foods, two separate dollar trees, and her EBT card was used out in ATM, I'm assuming for cash, which I don't. I didn't know you could do that. I know Quest machines you can do that at, but I don't know. I didn't know ATMs could give you cash for food stamps, but it's Minnesota, so I don't know. Maybe they have different machines than they do here.
tiffany:Surveillance from the stores and the ATM showed Joseph wearing the same baseball hat he wore when he left Manny's apartment. Also, the items that he purchased were super suspect. From the dollar tree he bought paper towels, saran wrap, latex gloves, trash bags, a plastic bucket, disinfectant wipes and liquid cleaning solvent. From the other dollar tree he bought more saran wrap paper towels and disinfecting wipes. Normally these would be typical items that you would buy if you were like, let's say, a cleaning lady, a custodian, a housewife or a man who, would you know, maybe has a germ phobia or something.
wendy:Somebody that just decided they needed lime and some rope and a shovel.
tiffany:Yeah, or something like that. These aren't typical items that are purchased by somebody who isn't cleaning out their garage you know, and it's strange when used for your girlfriend's apartment.
wendy:And the timing's a little odd as well.
tiffany:Yeah, and I was also thinking I wonder what the cashiers were thinking. You know, after the police came in and solicited the video surveillance and then later saw why on the news, oh hell, yeah, right, I couldn't imagine being a cashier who rung out and alleged murderers clean up in disposal kit.
wendy:Girl, I could not imagine being a cashier in general, Well, I have been.
tiffany:I was a cashier at one point and I'm going to tell you right now, the people you come in contact with are crazier than a bag of cats. And then you got some guy coming in with all these cleaning supplies and then you find out that you know he allegedly murdered his girlfriend. Right? Yeah? No, that would give me the creeps. That would give me the fucking creeps.
tiffany:Before detectives had gotten the search warrant for Joe's apartment, his neighbors in the Maplewood complex were complaining about a foul smell in the building. Management was called multiple times and people were up in arms about the odor. They thought maybe there was a dead animal in the building. Someone even had video footage of a balcony of Joseph's apartment where they claimed that there was a pink blanket hanging and that the person said it looked like there was a dead body under it. But later on they never found any evidence that there was a body on the deck.
tiffany:The building manager and maintenance employee tried to enter Joseph's apartment to see where this horrendous smell was coming from. Joseph stopped them right in the doorway and became extremely hostile. He refused to let them into the bedroom where it seemed the smell was coming from. The manager and the maintenance worker left because they didn't want to fight to ensue. But later on they seen Joseph leave in the apartment with the two large duffel bags. According to the affidavit, the two even said that it looked like he was carrying out a dead body. That was their quote.
wendy:Yes, this is not funny, but here go some pretty conspicuous breadcrumbs guys.
tiffany:Yeah, I know you're not laughing because it's funny, because this is not funny.
wendy:No, it's not. I mean, it's tragic. You're laughing because it's ridiculous that it is ridiculous.
tiffany:He's just flaunting it around and people are seeing him doing this shit.
wendy:Everyone is seeing him, the cashier, the police, he's just waving a little flag like, hey, it was me Exactly, and it's like you are a moron, sir.
tiffany:Number one, Number two did you really think that people weren't going to notice?
wendy:It's the cut-temperapetic mattress from me that one just blew my mind. Then his little grocery shopping adventure.
tiffany:Yeah, I mean, he's really throwing them breadcrumbs out there.
wendy:It's unbelievable. Wow, who needs forensics when you have this?
tiffany:Well, yeah, all you need is regular, like gum chew police work to get this one done. Because, yes, I mean forensics helps, but I mean police were already suspicious of Joseph after finding a Facebook post from April 5th, so complaints about the odor probably added fuel to the proverbial fire. Joseph's Facebook post read and you owe me two because you called the cops on me two times Very clear I was of that being punishable by hanging. I'm giving you this plea bargain opportunity. Sorry, it's hard to read this because he doesn't speak very good English and everything that's written in this Facebook post is abbreviated. And I'm not saying he doesn't speak good English because he's foreign, because he's not. He's just not smart.
tiffany:No, on June 26, 2023, detectives acquired a search warrant for Joseph's apartment and, instead of letting officers in, joseph barricaded himself in the bedroom and police were forced to get the SWAT team up in there. Joseph started a fire in the closet. The SWAT team broke into the apartment and Joseph tried to physically fight the officers and grab their weapons. Once inside the home, police found a pool of blood inside of Joseph's closet in the same Jesus Christ, no, seriously in the same place that he decided to try and light that fire this man is standing outside of a bar with a fake ID, winking yeah and police noticed that there had been recent maggot activity in the closet, which suggests their body was decomposing in there.
tiffany:Police seized all the evidence, including Joseph's phone, and police obtained Google data that showed that he had searched Jogular. What do police do with the missing persons report and lime for soil, which eludes that maybe he was searching in reference to decomp? Since Joseph didn't have a home or a garden, there would be no other reason why he would search for those keywords in the search engine. He was arrested and charged with arson, threats of violence and disarming an officer. Joseph's roommate, who had known Joseph like 30 years, locked himself in his bathroom during the whole hostile ordeal. He told police that he had little to no contact with Manny and didn't know anything that was going on, mainly because he said he worked Monday through Friday and wasn't home much. However, when he got home did he not smell the decomposing body? That's what I found extremely odd.
wendy:Right have you ever had a mouse or anything stuck in your wall and it smells a whole entire body Like yeah, that apartment must have smelled like shit.
tiffany:Yeah, it must have smelled like literal rotten flesh. Like, yeah, my roommates' bedroom smelled like rotten flesh. I think I would have called authorities, being that his girlfriend was missing. But hey, that's just me. Yeah, no, I'm not buying that. I'm not saying he had anything to do with it. Maybe he's just like turning a blind eye or trying to put it out of his mind or you know whatever, because he don't want to get hurt. I get that. I just feel like that smell when you come home from work and you smell that Like there's no mistaking that smell for something else.
wendy:Right. I could see him not knowing what's going on in the media, not knowing the body was missing. I mean not knowing anything pertaining to him and his girlfriend. I can see that because I've got so inundated with work that I've not paid attention to what was going on in reality. But there still is paying attention to your circumstances, which include your senses sense of sight, sense of smell and sense of smell. Unless he can't smell, that doesn't make any sense, because he would have been in that man's room to try to clean out whatever mouse or dead rat or human.
tiffany:Joseph was transported to the hospital to be evaluated before going back to the police station. I couldn't find out if it was for injuries or for a psyche valve, but if I had to bet my money on it, I'd say both. When the rest of the phone's data was analyzed, joseph's GPS led investigators to a storage unit. When they interviewed the employees at the storage unit, they realized that Joseph allegedly used a roommate's name to rent the unit. Inside of the unit, police found Manny's torso and head inside of a large cooler wrapped in saran wrap and plastic bags, her arms, legs and thighs, and they were also wrapped in saran wrap but found in a blue duffel bag. The autopsy report stated that Manny died from homicide, but the actual cause of death was left as undetermined because they weren't able to pinpoint how she died. Joseph Jorgensen was then arrested for second-degree murder on a $5 million bail and is awaiting a hearing that's due to happen on August 31st. But I went back and checked on August 31st and I waited to do this case and I couldn't find anything about his hearing. So I don't know if it's just not in the news for, I guess, popularity reasons. Sometimes the media does that If the story is not that popular. They don't even report on it anymore, or it had gotten moved and I don't know about it. So when something comes out I'll let you guys know, but his lawyer hasn't made any statements and there hasn't been a plea put in.
tiffany:Investigators aren't done with Joseph, though, because it led them to make other connections, including that of another woman, a 33-year-old woman named Fanta Zayavong. It's X-A-Y-A-V-O-N-G, she's Asian and it's a I'm assuming that's a Filipino name, but I'm not really sure Went missing on July of 2021. Police released her description to the media and Fanta was described as 5 feet 4 inches tall and weighing about 120 pounds. Her last known location may have been Shoreview. Strangely, she wasn't reported missing until 2023. A friend of Fanta's called the Human Trafficking Investigation Task Force to report her missing almost two years after he had last heard from her. He assumed that she had been used in human trafficking because she had been living kind of a hard life.
tiffany:Around the time Fanta went missing. She was in an abusive relationship with Joseph Jorgensen. Fanta was addicted to drugs, just like Manny, and the friend who called the tip line was trying to get her in a rehab also. Unfortunately, he was stopped by Joseph, who had allegedly threatened to kill him. Only a few days after Fanta was reported missing in 2023, police found Fanta's remains. They executed a second search warrant for a completely different storage unit. They found this one in Coons Rapid, minnesota. Police now have a search warrant for the Shoreview home that Joseph previously owned to see if there's any more evidence to tie him to that crime. And, as of Thursday, july 6th 2023, Joseph still hasn't been charged for Fanna's death. So right now, joseph has been called a person of interest and I checked this recently, like a couple days ago. He's still a person of interest, I'm guessing, because they're still looking for more evidence before formally charging him, and I think it's weird that no one wondered where Fanna was for two years.
wendy:So that a bloody breadcrumb trail wasn't sufficient enough for them.
tiffany:Well, I think they want to make sure it's concrete and there isn't other bodies too, because now we got two girls that are linked to this man. It was cut and dry. They had video evidence and everything. This one it's speculation at this point. She dated the guy around the time she went missing. She was found in a storage unit that was supposed to be owned by him or rented by him under a false name. So I think they're trying to get more evidence before formally charging him so they don't lose the second case.
wendy:Smart.
tiffany:Yeah, but I did find her Facebook fancies and the posts stopped around the time she went missing, you know, when she lost contact with her friends, so it didn't look like she was alive for longer than that. I couldn't find anyone on her Facebook asking where she might be or reaching out to other friends of hers. A lot of her posts were about getting money. I don't know any information about what she did for a living so I can't really speculate, but since her death people have been extremely cruel. I found posts of people commenting under older posts of hers talking about her getting dommered and cut up and thrown into a storage unit.
wendy:Things have gotten very strange and eerie. Since the internet has become such a big thing, especially when it comes to murders and things like that, you really do see the darkness of people coming out. Yeah, the way that they were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer and you know somebody pulling a Jeffrey Dahmer on her, like that'd be a cool thing to happen to her, like that just blows my mind because it shows that overtone of idolizing these foxes.
wendy:Yeah, it's disgusting and having no sympathy, no empathy whatsoever for the victims that have gone through this, because it doesn't matter what she was doing. It doesn't matter if she was an imperfect person, because every if anything, she was out there promoting what she's truly doing instead of being a liar yeah, instead of being a liar yeah, yeah, exactly.
wendy:Being real. She was just keeping it real and people were hating on her for it. But no matter how much hate you have for another human being that you really, in many of these online cases, don't even know, I bet you money, though, that this dude didn't even know who she was. Possibly, but I bet you money that many of these people talking shit don't either.
tiffany:That's what I'm saying, these ones on her Facebook, because this was in the news. So I'm assuming that these people are just coming out of a woodwork just saying shit.
wendy:Right, it's amazing, amazingly horrible, that these fucking assholes idolize these serial killers and they shit all over the victims and I see it a lot online, oh yeah.
tiffany:I think it's because they're sitting behind a computer Like it's easy just to say whatever the fuck you want, and when you're fucking miserable and you're bored with your life and you hate your life and you hate other people and you don't like women, you're going to go and you're going to shit all over victims online and it's disgusting.
wendy:Yeah, they shit on victims and they sexualize and glorify these psychopaths and that blows my mind that people would want and choose to use this medium to exploit how fucked up they are in that way. Oh yeah, that's sad, that's really fucked up.
tiffany:Yeah, and that wasn't the only comment either. Like I saw so many, fucking, so many people and I wanted to write something so bad under her post but I was like why am I going to go on a victims that you know profile and write stuff and upset her family? So I was like you know what, I'm not going to say anything. But I was so angry like I wanted to call this guy as piece of shit. Now I don't give him the platform, so I'm not going to say who it was or whatever, but there was multiple comments from different people saying things about this and I just thought it was the most disgusting thing and I really hope that at some point these people are ashamed of themselves, because when you post shit like that on the internet, your jobs see that. People find you. When they see stuff like that and they report you to your your boss, you're going to get fired.
wendy:And so be it. I hope those fuckers do get fired.
tiffany:Me too. I hope whatever job. If this dude even has a job, I hope he gets fucking fired because, somebody reports, his fucking ass is exactly it shows the content of his character.
wendy:and who wants that, who wants to put that in there? This is who I hire and this is who gives my business credibility.
tiffany:Yeah, that's the kind of people like. So, whoever this man's boss says, if you do see that comment online, I hope you fire him. Please fire him. Anyway, I did find one post on her Facebook from 2022 asking if anybody had seen her, because they hadn't heard from her in like a year. And of course, you know, some other piece of shit couldn't help themselves and posted under under there and this was a female, by the way and she wrote they knew where she was. She's in the ground. Rest in peace Again.
tiffany:It took everything inside of me, everything to not go full on nerd rage on that piece of shit. I felt like my mama bear instincts rising up and I can't imagine being that horrible and ugly of a person. But now that two women have been linked to Joseph Jorgensen, police think that there may be others alluding that he may be a serial killer. Police noted the investigation is still very active and they're asking anyone with information to contact the department at 651-291-1111. I'm going to put this number in the show notes. People can also submit tips to the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehensions tip line at 1877-996-6222. Or you can email them at bcatips at statemnus.
tiffany:Both of them were beautiful women and I know that both were struggling, but you know what some of the best people I ever met in my life struggled with substance abuse problems. Fanta's family donated to the Starens family and they reached out in grief and since the two women were linked, you know, they felt connected. Fanta's family said on behalf of the Xeavon family we would like to send our deepest condolences and with so much love and appreciation we are able to put our little sister to rest. It's a very sad case but I hope that Joseph Jorgensen, who is the alleged killer, is found guilty, if he is, and I hope that if there are other women, that they find them and that they see justice for these women.
wendy:It just breaks my heart because of how young they are.
tiffany:I know, and it's like you know, no matter what, even when they lock them up, it don't do nothing for them.
wendy:Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
tiffany:I mean they're happy that they're not out on the street, but they're like man, my son or daughter's not coming back. You know what I mean.
wendy:Yeah, there's a void there that's incurable. And so, instead of say, reach a state of peace, a simulance of peace, knowing that justice has been served.
tiffany:If you'd like to check us out on Facebook, instagram, twitter, youtube or TikTok, then you can find us under Rogue and Wicked Podcast. If you'd like to join our Patreon and become a subscriber, then you can find us at wwwpatreoncom. Our tier one listeners get pictures, polls and exclusive content. Our tier two listeners get all that plus a bonus episode monthly. Our tier three listeners get two bonus episodes monthly and all tiers get a shout out on the pod. Grab a copy of Wendy's book Sage. It's available at roguepoetnet. Any cool stories, questions or case suggestions should be sent to our email at rogueandwicked at yahoocom. And don't forget to give us a five star review on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The more reviews that we get, the more pod episodes that we can bring to you. Thanks for listening and until next time.
